diesel engines then and now.

[CrabbyMilton]

I was recently looking at some old school bus chassis brochure's from about the early to mid 1980's. Looking at the specs, it's quite amazing how far diesel engine technology has advanced. IH/NAVISTAR had a 9.0L diesel that put out no more than about 180hp and it was loud and could be smoky at times. The ratings were similar with the GM and FORD chassis based buses and the size of engines in relation to horsepower.
Fast forward 40 years later when you have engines like the CUMMINS ISB 6.7 that can easily put out 300 hp with most being 200-250 range and still use less fuel, little to no smoke, and much more quiet too. There are drawback with electronic issues and emission headaches. But all in all they have come a long ways. Interesting too that IH/NAVISTAR/IC BUS used to produce their own engines for their skoolie chassis and now CUMMINS is the sole diesel engine for them too. Wonder what the next 40 or so years will bring. Certainly electric will be a huge factor.

[neoneddy]

I'm not expert, but I know HP and Torque alone aren't the end all be all.  Bearing size and component size extends the life and time between rebuilds.

On the future, I think long haul trucks and buses will eventually goto a hybrid diesel electric, like modern trains are.   They'll plugin at the warehouse / dock to super charge, use batteries to get out of town then eventually diesel engine will come online to keep things charged while on the long hauls. 

[luvrbus]

International D series engine were tough as nails,the EPA did those in but the DT466 is still used in farm equipment,The Cummins and IH deal is strange Cummins sued the EPA to make IH stop installing the D in trucks and RV's IH dodged the EPA by paying a 1500.00 fine for each engine installed that did not meet emissions requirements,they made millions of engines that did not use the DEF systems before they stopped   

[windtrader]

and for the future....
E L E C T R I C!! LOL

[luvrbus]

The future, trains from the 20's have been electric lol they just have a huge generator

[CrabbyMilton]

100% electric has a long ways to go. BLUEBIRD, THOMAS and IC are now offering them. Perhaps the idea will get over in some transit agencies since diesel electric hybrids seem to have reasonable success in some areas but I'm sure all electric will be tried more and more too. I just can't see over the road buses other than diesel being the norm for the next many years even though there will be an 100% electric J4500. They had the D4500 hybrid so I'm not sure how that worked out.

[windtrader]

100% electric has a long ways to go. BLUEBIRD, THOMAS and IC are now offering them
Crab,
Please explain why private capitalist companies are investing millions with the expectation of profit from selling these new vehicles? Maybe the government offers subsidies to make the numbers work or the ROI is extended or ?

All electric buses are not a long way away, it is happening today. Will it take time to grow? Of course as these are large capital investments, decisions influenced by many factors including the macro economy and politics and competition, etc. The trade journals report increasing sales of electric buses.

Deployment for long distance purposes has different challenges than intracity use and is going to take more time for better technology and infrastructure but it will get worked out.

[CrabbyMilton]

In the case of the skoolie builders, there is likely a lobby from the parents and educational nannies to put a stop to those evil diesel engine that in their mind still stink and make too much noise. They wouldn't want their precious snowflakes be traumatized. So these builders are putting up a great deal of capital and while it shows promise, it could flop too. For now though, I think the electrics will just be used for short trips around town while the diesel, gasoline, and propane versions used for longer trips until the existing technology is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt for longer trips. Transits are funded by the feds so that gives the builders carte blanche  build crap versions. Doesn't matter since they only have to keep them for 12 years anyway. You are correct about over the road versions.
Keep in mind that electric vehicles do a have ways to go. Remember in CA. where that TESLA S police car konked out due to lack of juice in the middle of a chase?

[bobofthenorth]

International D series engine were tough as nails,the EPA did those in but the DT466 is still used in farm equipment,

And they were dirt cheap to fix and dead simple to work on.  We had them from 175 HP to 350 HP.  350 was over the top but the lower HP ones ran forever.  The only problem we had with the high HP ones was that they would melt pistons if the driver kept his foot in it but even then we could have them back in the field in less than 48 hours.  I never heard of a marine 466 - that surprises me.

[lvmci]

In LV & LA they were using compressed natural gas CNG busses for city, regional and Schools. With dramatic reduction in pollution. Also less wear on the engine. I had a pickup and a full size van that were cng from new, the biggest problem is the tanks wouldn't last but 15 years, not as big a deal as an engine rebuild or electric car battery replacement, but the regional buss MCI built had 600 equivalent gallons of tanks filling the bays, that could be expensive, lvmci...

[Dreadnought]

I was a chief engineer at Navistar and picked up the mess of the 'adv EGR' emissions fiasco.

The DT466 is a stout motor as is the 574 cu in version but it is overbuilt and the BSFC (brake specific fuel consumption) numbers are terrible- they are like a petrol engine). The bottom end bearing diameter are bigger than the 12.4 litre Maxxforce 13 or the MAN diesel engines (they share the same basic architechture).

Thanks to all the underhand shenanigans- Navistar barely has a powertrain division now.
I  do agree about the Bhp/longevity paradigm too- a maxxforce 13 can make A LOT more power- may be 600 bhp- but its B50 life may come down from the claimed 1.2 million miles to 900,000 miles may be. More often in a linehaul application the cooling is the major issue.

Regarding electric power- I can see electrification for heavy urban and town use, may be hybrid or may be pure electric. In fact many parts of America already have pure electric- eg King county in Washington near seattle, and it certain makes sense but for class 8 linehaul it makes very little sense at current technology levels.
Anyone who believes the media and hype is quite naïve or ignorant and needs to do some more reading. As an OEM guy involved in this I can say  the media is pedaling a lot of this vilification of diesel engines- very much like CNN. A class 8 linehaul runs at close to its max power over 80% of its duty cycle. By comparison a car doesn't ,a large sedan may be using 35 bhp to run at 70 mph. EV vehicles with lithium ion technology will be way over weight and not have anywhere near the range of a diesel 1300 mile norm. Sorry to burst the naïve idealists bubble. And NO, I don't CARE what Elon Musk says, he knows nothing- he's not a technical guy. In class 8 linehaul weight is also important as weight on the drivetrain will take away from freight efficiency.
In addition- when temps get to 30 deg F the range of an EV will go down by up to 60%! Even more at colder temps. In addition the charge times go up by more than double.

Why haven't we heard this? Why isn't this publicized? This info is straight from the industry. Still think the media is impartial and have no agenda?

Then dig into working out CO2 emissions from petroleum cracking all the way to diesel power and then to the tyres, then do the same for power generation (40% coal in the USA and over 30% natural gas) all the way to losses due to power transmission. Coal powerstations have an alarmingly low efficiency rating of in the 20s, where as petrol have numbers almost in the nineties. Then figure in 10% power transmission loss and the fact that coal and NG powerstations per KW produce more Carbon monoxide (cars don't produce CO) and CO2 than cars- and then you'll start to see that there is no big ecological advantage to going to pure electric. Not globally. It simply shifts the emissions elsewhere. It's the most short sighted strategy and all the non technical naïve masses are lapping it up. Oh, and I haven't even started to dig into Lithium mining to keep this all simple.

[Nova Eona]

I'm expecting salvage heavy electric motor-in-hub systems to be affordable in the next 10-15 years, looking forward to converting my 4104 to a hybrid when they do.  I'll probably keep the old 671 in, just slap a generator head in place of the Spicer!

[chessie4905]

Good luck.

[neoneddy]

@Nova That's exactly how the big mine haul trucks work. My father-in-law sells and refurbishes them. Craziest thing I learned was how they brake. They use the wheel motors as generators like you'd expect, but they just burn off the energy as heat in a giant toaster. I'd think a giant set of capacitors or something would be better and then store it, but whatever works.

We'll see how it  goes.

[luvrbus]

I have been watching Cat assemble their new AC drive 795 mining truck it makes no sense using the same 3500 hp Cat engine  to generate power as the same engine is used in the same truck and tonnage with the all machinal drive train.I am in agreement with the mining super what is the advantage