Broke down in Davenport - blown power steering line

[chessie4905]

Touch the pipe with a magnet.

[richard5933]

Brief update now that the 1st shift team has looked at the situation...

Line is definitely a copper hydraulic line. They think it's got a union in the tunnel going through the bay to the rear, and if so they hope to replace from that union to the next joint forward of the HVAC compartment.

The actual repair shouldn't be a big issue, and then I hope that the power steering comes back to life after its back together. Never ran one dry like this, so to me it's still a concern till they confirm no additional problems.

Then it's on to the de-stinking...

[chessie4905]

Maybe it is a return line. I can't believe they would use straight copper for that kind of pressure and flexing every time pressure changes.

[richard5933]

First, all the hard lines for this bus's power steering are copper. That's what GMC installed and if not for the unanchored & chaffed battery cable, they'd still be doing their job.

Drove the bus 3 hours today to get home from Davenport. Possible (probable) problem with the work they did in Davenport. They replaced a section of the 1/2" copper hydraulic line which was damaged. Rather than having two added joints by just cutting out the damaged piece, they went back a couple of feet to a flared fitting. That was a good thing. Then they brazed a coupler to the other end.

They first tried a compression fitting but it leaked. I think I know why. The piece of copper they used is type L, but the factory piece was type K. Same outside diameter, but the type K has a thicker sidewall. The thinner sidewall is probably why the compression fitting didn't work.

I saw a scrap piece of the new copper sitting next to the one they cut out, and I instantly noticed the difference. When I saw what they did my initial concern was about whether the thinner sidewall tube would hold up long term. Burst strength is apparently high enough, but the working pressure is my concern.

Called a few places to check out the details. Best I could determine was that the type K should be fine as long as it's the return line. The shop assured me that it is. I'm not so sure. The manual shows the steering gear's operating pressure of 1450-1550. The copper they used for the return line repair has a 'operating pressure' rating of 1200. Even though it's a return line, I'm not happy.

For today I will let it be, but I'm not a happy camper. This should have been done correctly. Apparently they sent a guy to Menards (like Home Depot) to buy a stick of copper, and he really didn't know the difference between all the types available. Seems that they normally outsource all their hydraulic lines and hoses and just didn't have anyone in house to do this repair properly. I wish they had said so instead of making things up.

Aside from the copper being the wrong type, the brazing joint just doesn't look right. Kind of what I'd expect from a middle school shop class student with lots of splatter and dripped brazing rod everywhere. I've got a photo of that.

Tomorrow I plan to go to the Interstate location here in Milwaukee where I will run this past the upper management and see if they will make it right. They should. There wasn't much point pushing the folks in Davenport any further, since I don't think there is anyone there high enough to make the call. Much smaller shop than the Milwaukee one. Here in Milwaukee I've met a few of the upper echelon folks, so hopefully it won't be too difficult to get it straightened out.

Now that the battery cable is repaired and properly anchored, the only real risk is loss of power steering and a royal mess if it leaks. At least we're past the fire danger.

Meanwhile, the ozone machine will arrive tomorrow and I will start the cleaning. That and a few gallons of degreaser for down below and maybe the stink will start to dissipate.

[chessie4905]

I bought an ozone generator and used it in the coach after purchase. Apparently the previous owners wife used and/ or spilled perfume in coach. Two 6 hour sessions cleaned it up. About a month ago, caught a mouse in a trap in coach and didn't  notice for a couple of weeks. Wow talk about dead animal smell.. Used ozone generator and now smells nice and fresh again. It works nice in cars to remove cigarette smells or other. Bought it on Ebay.

[DoubleEagle]

Ozone does deodorize, but if the gas concentration is too high or lasts too long, things like synthetic carpets, carpet padding, foam cushions, rubber products, electrical wire coatings, and some fabrics, can be damaged. Any plants or animals in the bus would also be affected. If the only odor is the steering fluid smoke, maybe cleaning and airing out with fans would work.

[luvrbus]

Copper is never brazed they sliver solder a high pressure connection and you cannot butt weld 2 pieces of cooper together and make it last ,the later model buses are steel lines and real thin running @ 2200 to 2400 #'s.The smell has to be washed away a ozone generator is just good in a confined place to replace the air in the space with ozone lol been there done and still have the ozone generator and tee shirt to prove it   

[richard5933]

They did mention silver solder, but they also called it brazing. Either way, it looks sloppy to me.

For the most part, the oil has been cleaned from inside the HVAC cabinet itself. The air coming from the vents has no discernible odor. There is a little oil still dripping from under the bus, coming from the internal spaces in the aluminum body parts. The tech mentioned that some oil had gotten under the HVAC cabinet and worked its way through some of the belly parts below the bay floor.

I don't think that the odor inside the bus is coming from the little oil still dripping out. I think that the few minutes of oily smoke inside the bus is what I'm smelling now. I'll start the process of cleaning the upholstery and carpet today. Once I get things as clean as I can, I'll let the ozone machine run for a while and then air things out and see how it is.

[Jim Blackwood]

Yep, that looks pretty nasty. Doesn't mean it won't hold, but not exactly confidence inspiring.

There's a flat filler rod that is used for fluxless brazing of copper (silver soldering if you like). I'll try to get you the name of it. It's hands down the best filler rod for copper I've ever seen and makes joining easier and more reliable than any other method including soft solder.

The commonly available copper tubing is that used for either water lines or A/C work. You may have to special order your thick wall tubing. I'd try McMasterCarr.

Jim

[richard5933]

Yep, that looks pretty nasty. Doesn't mean it won't hold, but not exactly confidence inspiring.

There's a flat filler rod that is used for fluxless brazing of copper (silver soldering if you like). I'll try to get you the name of it. It's hands down the best filler rod for copper I've ever seen and makes joining easier and more reliable than any other method including soft solder.

The commonly available copper tubing is that used for either water lines or A/C work. You may have to special order your thick wall tubing. I'd try McMasterCarr.

Jim

May not be as easy to find the correct tubing as it is to find residential quality stuff, but it doesn't look like they even tried very hard. I was told that they just sent someone to the local Menards (local chain similar to Home Depot) to buy the copper.

When I talked to the Milwaukee location about all this yesterday, they confirmed that they would have reached out to their hydraulic line shop (Hyquip) for help getting something in there that was at least as good as what came out. Doing an online search shows it available in many places, including Grainger.

Anxious to hear what they are going to do about this once the upper echelon finishes their deliberations.

[Jim Blackwood]

The brazing rod is Harris P/N 21035 Phos/Copper Brazing Alloy. Acetylene/air torch (plumber's torch) works best but MAP gas should also be fine.

Jim

[luvrbus]

The brazing rod is Harris P/N 21035 Phos/Copper Brazing Alloy. Acetylene/air torch (plumber's torch) works best but MAP gas should also be fine.

Jim

Another brand is StaySliver the one I use the more sliver in the rod the price goes up,MAP gas doesn't cut it on the Staysliver   

[chessie4905]

If this failure was directly above hvac compartment, I went out and checked mine, as it has just an open space where hvac was removed during conversion. The main battery cables go through a mounting bracket with individual grommets till they go through bulkhead to next compartment.

[richard5933]

If this failure was directly above hvac compartment, I went out and checked mine, as it has just an open space where hvac was removed during conversion. The main battery cables go through a mounting bracket with individual grommets till they go through bulkhead to next compartment.

That's the exact place where the problem occurred. The cable in mine makes a turn after going through the mounting bracket on its way to the bulkhead. Where the cable makes that turn in my bus it crosses over the copper power steering hydraulic line. What happened was the cable sagged in the area of the turn and fell against the copper. In all other places the cable and/or the copper are wrapped in a cloth that resembles a fire hose. This crossing point in my bus had neither the cable or the copper wrapped, and this is what allowed the insulation on the cable to wear through. Surprising though, since my bus has such low miles. The cable still seems quite flexible with insulation in good condition, so I'm not sure how it managed to rub through. But it did.

[richard5933]

Update time...

Bus is now at Interstate Power Systems - Butler (Milwaukee area) where they have an 'A' team. First order of business was to determine with certainty whether it was the high-pressure or return line which was damage & repaired. Ends up that it was the high-pressure line, not the return line.

The tech said that the repair would 'probably' hold and that no further repairs should be needed. So I asked if they were confident enough to extend the warranty on the repair to a full year, and I was told by the service dept. that something like that was up to the branch manager.

Branch manager is a great guy. He was my service advisor when we started going there with our first bus. He said that he felt uncomfortable extending a warranty on the repair knowing that it was done improperly, and he said that he'd feel much better just doing the work again the correct way with the correct materials. That was a good answer.

So, kudos to the branch manager for doing the right thing. Kudos to Interstate - Butler for standing behind the work done by the company, even though it was not done at their location.

The shop is going to consult with their hydraulic parts supplier to determine the best way to install the proper copper line in the bus - much better than just guessing like the other location did. This is a bit outside their usual work since most commercial vehicles they work on don't have copper hydraulic line. I imagine that it will be put back together in the coming few days, and with the correct materials.

While the system is opened up, I'm having them change the canister filter & clean the high-pressure line filter. They are also going to replace the two flex lines that connect the steering gear with the forward end of the copper lines. After that, I should be good to go.