Building the 102DL3 (continuation of "Bumper" thread)

[Jim Blackwood]

Continued from:
https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/forum/index.php?topic=33639.new#new
-----------------------------------------------------------
So, we were discussing propane tanks, washer dryer, refrigerators, and other components used in the conversion in general but more to the point as it applies to my newly purchased but yet to be delivered 1996 DL3. I just exchanged texts with the seller and he feels they might be able to deliver within the next few days.

I take the point about a household refer, and have given it much thought over the years. However I very much like having more options, and I like being able to run it even if all electrical power is down, though I'm not entirely sure that is the case with the newer units. I'll have to look. As for running on an inverter, it sort of reminds me of using a 3-way in the past. It would run down the 12v batteries a lot faster than you might expect. Propane lasted much longer. Sort of a similar viewpoint as the propane genset. A full tank of propane is going to last me a long time provided I don't have to run the furnace all day every day, and if I do, what am I doing there anyway? I figure propane will always last longer than batteries, and will always be quieter than the generator. So it gets the nod as the number one camping power source, supplemented and superceded by the shore line where possible, with battery and inverter power being the source of last resort. That's what I'm shooting for here, and since it's my bus I get to do it however I want, though naturally I'm open to suggestions and recommendations. I've even got it worked out to where I don't have any interference from the wife. How long that will last I can't say but I'll enjoy it while I can. So anyway, A 2-way is good enough I think. When I had the 3-way I avoided using 12v like the plague. I also sort of feel like being level is a good thing and hope to use the bus pneumatics for that.

Thanks for the tip about a propane tank from a truck. Any specific ideas about where to look?

And here is a shot of the transfer switch and breaker box that came with the generator.

Jim

[chessie4905]

Google heavy duty truck salvage yards.

[chessie4905]

Here's an example tank, but some searching will likely score a bargain.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/05-Fleetwood-Revolution-LE-RV-USED-Manchester-Propane-Fuel-Tank-38-7-Gallons/173464009286?hash=item286342ba46:g:gRMAAOSwLztbbnGc&redirect=mobile

[chessie4905]

I've seen vehicle propane tanks in local scrap yards and they didn't appear to have any damage.All of the Schwans trucks around here run on propane.

[Jim Blackwood]

Yeah, thanks. Let's see if we can't divert the tank discussion over here.
Those guys selling on ebay have got a greatly exaggerated sense of the value of used tanks. Unless I'm badly mistaken, I believe I can buy a brand new Manchester 100 gallon (80%) tank for right at $1000. They are asking new prices and higher. I'm looking to pay about half that.

I respect and appreciate the arguments for portable tanks. BTDT. Didn't like hauling them to the Southern States over and over again. Don't like the 12 year limit. Get a bigger tank to start with and either drive to the source or have them bring a truck. I have stationary 200 pound tanks that they will happily refill, and I think that's around 30 gallons if it's empty, which they don't like too well. But anyway even if I'm wrong about the numbers the point is still valid, they will deliver. One time I even had a camper set up with a rented 100lb tank (that's pounds, not gallons. Big difference there.) and they brought the truck by to exchange it any time I called. But no, it isn't as convenient as the gas station. I never expected it would be. I want the larger capacity too, somewhere between 60 and 100 gallons at 80%.

Jim

[richard5933]

Regarding the refrigerator...

Both of my buses have had electric only refrigerators. Our 4106 had an older 12v/120v Norcold that worked pretty well but had troubles keeping up in really hot weather. The old Norcold 'Swing motors' were not the picture of efficiency however, as they were 23v AC compressors. When they ran off 12v there was a built-in inverter to convert to 23v AC, and when they ran off AC they had to use transformers to convert AC to AC.

Our current bus has a Vitrifrigo 12v/120v refrigerator. It is a very modern unit which uses a 12vdc compressor. It keeps the inside cold and can make ice easily in the freezer. The unit runs at about 5.5 amps when running, but obviously the average will be much less as it doesn't run all the time. The Vitrifrigo can operate on 120vac with its built-in inverter, but we don't have it connected. When we're on shore or generator our converter/charger is always running, and it easily has enough spare capacity to keep the fridge going.

There are much less expensive 12vdc compressor refrigerators out there, but we didn't want to alter the cabinetry. This left us with only one possible fridge - the Vitrifrigo. If the cabinetry wasn't a problem, then we probably would have gone with a larger and less expensive 12vdc fridge. Most of the RV refrigerator companies make electric-only units which use compressors and not the propane heater setup.

The 3-way fridges, from what I've seen, have two problems. First, there is the danger issue. I don't care how much they say that they've fixed the safety problems, it seems that every few years a new one develops and we have a spate of RV fires. The other issue is that when they are used on 12vdc the power consumption can be high. And then of course the question of how well they actually cool the food.

The propane units do require 12vdc to operate, at least the ones I've seen. Not sure if they will work in a total no-power situation.

If you've got the room and battery bank to do so, the residential unit on inverter might be a good idea. From my math it will burn up a bit more current than a fridge using a 12vdc compressor though so you'll have to do the math. Remember that 1 amp @ 120vac requires 10 amps @ 12vdc to make through an inverter.

[luvrbus]

Check the Amish built propane fridges like Miller they are as good as any 115 v or 12v fridge made

[Geoff]

Last summer I threw a 20 year old Sunfrost in the dumpster.  Replacement would have run $4k.  Supposedly the best 12v refer you can buy.  This one had an unrepairable freon leak in the 4-5" insulated side wall.

Customer bought an apartment refrigerator and pure sine wave Magnatex inverter for less than half that.

[sledhead]

the same washer and dryer inside the Featherlite

dave

[Jim Blackwood]

Nice to know a that standard width washer and dryer can be made to fit. I just measured ours here at the house and it looks like about 1-1/2" to spare widthwise but they'd have to have front controls like yours and be an inch shorter and then like you said, it'd be a squeeze. Here's hoping you don't have to do any repairs.

I've got a photo of the inside of the transfer switch. Doesn't look very complicated. Because it was a residential backup the gen is configured to start when mains power goes down and the transfer switch connects once gen power is up. Presumably it shuts down the same way. But there may be a switch for manual control. Looks like they function independently of each other.

Jim

[chessie4905]

At the " biggest RV show in the country" last September, in Pa. Most of the RV's that had washer-driers, used compact stacked Whirlpool units. Before, they used some non common units and the Splendide units.
I think this is a new item from Whirlpool or I just didn't notice in past couple of years.

[Jim Blackwood]

I was just looking at the combination washer/dryers and it looks like a great idea but maybe they've been rushed to market. Probably makes sense to give them a few more years, and than maybe the prices will come down and they will start showing up on Craigslist. I think I'll see if I can get the dimensions and reserve space, then leave that as one of the very last items to be added. I'm on a 5 year plan here so that will make a difference.

I measured that stainless tank today and roughly what I have is a large tank of 275 gal. capacity and a small one of 40 gal on the back in the center. The large tank can be divided into two tanks by adding a horizontal or vertical wall and a top.  The entire assembly can fit into the bay rotated either of two ways as it is 55" x 56" including the small tank. Some trimming and welding is necessary regardless but as currently configured the main tank has a slanted and tapered bottom leading to, I think a 2-1/2" NPT outlet which discharges under the rear tank, so that would work very well as the black water tank. I was thinking that the sensible thing might be to weld in a horizontal wall and use the section above that as the gray water tank, then cut off the rear tank and weld panels onto the front to make a fresh water tank. That way  there will be no weld seams between the fresh and waste tanks but they can use a common wall. If I make the front tank full width, 33" tall and 26" deep it will hold about 200 gal. I could also run a stand pipe through the grey tank to connect to the toilet directly. The discharge side (rear of the tank) would be on the driver's side as installed.

So I'm thinking maybe a good thing would be a valve connecting the gray tank to the black tank (in addition to a 1/2" NPT gray water drain and a standard size discharge) so that the gray water can be flushed through the black water tank. Anybody see a problem with this? I suppose a backflush might work just as well but requires the same number of valves.

That would take up 66" of the 97" or so available across the bay. If there is a dropped section in the center of the bay that can be subtracted and the fresh tank made deeper to keep the same volume. Either way I think it's workable from what I know now and the bus will be here before I order materials of cut metal. Some dimensions will change.

Anyway, the remaining 31" of bay depth would be divided between space for the dump valves and plumbing on one side (also the side with the toilet) and probably about 20" on the other which could be used for batteries and power distribution.

Jim

[richard5933]

Not sure if there's a need for a separate gray and black tank, especially if you are putting in a large tank. Our first bus and our current used a combined waste tank. Current one is 90 gallons and two of us can go nearly a week if we are careful. Having a combined tank makes dumping easy with little chance of solids building up on the bottom.

Since you may at done point in the future have to pull the tanks for service / repair you might want to think about downsizing the larger tank or making two tanks out it.

Having waste and fresh tanks share a common wall would never pass the powers that be in my house. If there is ever a problem with a pinhole, you're going to be in a world of trouble. Might want to rethink that. Nothing is ever leak free forever, no matter how much you think it is.

[luvrbus]

Both the single and the 2 tanks have their advantages and disadvantages the 2 tanks are preferred by the off grid and boondockers most places will let you dump gray water on the ground the BLM here in Az will I know.If it wasn't for the RVers gray water Quartzsite bushes would die  ,I have always had 2 tanks I dump the black first and then grey     

[Jim Blackwood]

Yeah, I had my doubts about a common wall too, even if it is unblemished 12 ga stainless. And, I doubt there realistically is any reason to have even a 100 gallon grey water tank since you can almost always run it out with a green garden hose. If that's true of the grey water, surely the black water tank can be even smaller. So if the big stainless tank becomes the fresh water tank, leaving room behind it for say up to 100 gallons each of grey and black, then it's just a matter of finding or making tanks of the right configuration.

Now, having just looked again at the bay opening dimensions, 33" x 54" doesn't allow this tank to slide in facing out. It will have to  face front or rear, with the small tank sliced off. The discharge port can be blocked off and a smaller more convenient fitting welded in. That leaves approx. 17-1/2" of side space inside the bay. If two equal sized tanks were fitted into that space, taking up all the room, they would be 67 gallons each. If those two tanks went all the way across the bay they would be 117.5 gallons each. Or about 115 with dump valves, say a cable or linkage operated dump valve between the two tanks and a main dump valve in a recess on the end of the black tank. Wouldn't be cheap to make, but could be just as cheap as buying them.  Also, these tanks could be made of poly, provided they were bonded well enough to guarantee against leakage. For practical purposes, say each of these two tanks were 32 x 17 x 47, or allowing for the hinges, 42" for a 99 gallon capacity. Allowances would have to be made for sliding the tanks into place and for accessing the center valve. Might be smart to have an off-side dump on the grey tank just in case, as well as the all important fitting for the hose, and clearance for the linkage, all of which will decrease capacity somewhat. So if the water tank was slid to one side, the smaller tanks would have to slide past it 3" before clearing the entry. With 1/2" fore/aft clearance that would probably work. If not. the off side corner could be beveled some. Other refinements could be added.

Also that would leave about 39" x 40" open space in the bay, in addition to about a 5" space at the end of each waste tank. The water tank could be centered, probably a good idea, leaving a 19 x 40" bay on each side. IF there isn't anything sticking down in the middle. If there is, the capacity of each tank would have to be reduced accordingly. Can't see that as being a real problem. What do you guys think? Also, who's come up with a really slick way of routing their slinky out of the bay?

Jim