Michelin X Line Energy Z

[richard5933]

I'm starting the search for new tires, hoping to get them installed in early spring. Right now we're running Firestone FS 400 in 315/80R22.5 size. We've been happy with them, and other than the tires being seven years old there is absolutely nothing wrong with them.

My initial thought was to replace them with a new set of the same. The tire dealer I'm hoping to work with is recommending Michelin, mainly I think because that is their main line and the Firestones will need to be ordered in.

So, I looked at the Michelin tires available, and with the FMCA discount they would end up costing about the same as the Firestones. Not sure if they are better, about the same, or a step down.

One tire I'm looking at is the Michelin X Line Energy Z. https://www.michelinrvtires.com/tires/selector/#!/info/x-line-energy-z-coach

Anyone have any experience with this tire?

The Firestone FS 400 spin at 491 rpm. These Michelin also have 491 rpm. Pretty close to the OEM specs of 495.

The other tire I'm considering is a Conti Coach HA3, but it spins at only 488 rpm. Not sure how that will affect performance, and since I'm already feeling that the bus is short on low-end power I don't want to do anything to make it worse.

[Bill Gerrie]

I run Michelin XZA 11R22.5 on the front wheels. It is because of the soft ride. 7 years old isn't old for a bus tire. (I will duck from the flames) I talked to Michelin about my tires and they said that inspect them regularly and watch for cracks on the side wall and between the tread. No cracks or irregular wear keep going. They said 10 years is okay but because I store mine inside in a heated shop and take the weight off the axles for the winter they said just watch for abnormalities. I decided after 18 years it was time to get new ones. The original looked like new inside and out when I replaced them. I know the shop resold them to a gravel hauler. I am very careful with safety items even though because of the tires some may think otherwise.   

[buswarrior]

They run Michelin on the first line coach company I moonlight at.

Parent company is foreign owned, dividend demanding shareholders.

If running something else saved money, you can be sure they would run 'em...

In RV use, all tires need to be protected from the sun for long life.

Why do we keep repeating these "origin unknown" tire life time limits from decades ago, when tire rubber technology has changed so much since "then"?

488 revolutions per mile, vs 491 vs 495, pace those few feet out, you wouldn't feel the difference in the seat of your pants in a blind test.

If you had transit gearing, then every tire revolution counts in RV use, but that's not you.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[luvrbus]

315's are a overkill on a 35ft 4108 is there a reason you want 315's the bus was equipped with 12rx22.5 new,Me I would be looking at a Toyo they ride smooth ,a good tire,cheaper in price and not as prone to UVL checking as the Michelin X Energy.I have the Michelin 315 's but I am at 46,000 lbs,you can save money just on the FET (tax) on the 12R's vs the 315"s .One thing now days the 315's tire manufactures want the 315's on 9 inch wide wheels to reduce sidewall damage so check and see if you have 9 or 8.25 wheels 

[RJ]

Richard -

We lost a tire on our "new to us" Prevost about three weeks ago, inside dual.  No damage, fortunately.

Turned out the front two and the four drive tires were all 12 years old, and the tags (Firestones, very, very badly cracked) were 16 years old!  Scary.

Anyway, after much research, discovered several things:

The Tire and Rim Association does not recommend installing 315/80R22.5s on rims that are less than 9" wide.  All eight of the Alcoas on the Prevost were 8.25", so the 315s were out.

The stock OEM tire on your 4108, as with our XL, is a 12R22.5, Load Range H.  This tire will fit on an 8.25" rim, per the T&RA specs.

I looked into the FMCA's Michelin program, looking at both the Michelins and the Continentals.  Another busnut suggested I consider Sailun tires (which I'd never heard of, found out they're a Chinese product), but they don't have a dealer w/in 250 miles of me, so they were out.  Continental also didn't have a dealer nearby, so they were scratched.

Thus, after three days of pouring over website after website and review after review, I ended up with eight 12R22.5 LR H Toyo (Japanese) M170s from our local Les Schwab store (a company that has over 400 stores on the West Coast.) Mounted, balanced, new stems, taxes, etc. was $5300 out the door, which was $940 less than Michelins on the FMCA program.  This would work out to about $3975 for your 4108, if you went for the same tire.

I've only got about 100 miles on the Toyos at this point, but I'm very happy with the ride, plus they're very quiet on the different freeway surfaces in my area.  Oh, and they turn 490 revs/mile, which is pretty darned close to the GM spec'd 495 on your coach.

FWIW & HTH. . .

[richard5933]

Running stock steel wheels? Are they 8.25" or 9" wide?

Bus came to me with the 315s. I assume that they are there because the previous owner ran a fleet of commercial buses and probably had these on hand.

The Michelin 12R22.5 spins at 486 rpm. Starting to get further from the 495 factory mark.

[richard5933]

Following some of the suggestions, I've been looking to see what tires are available in the 12R22.5 size. There are not nearly as many options, which is maybe why people are running the 315s instead.

In looking at the bus more closely, I do see that at some time the edge of the tires have touched the air bags in the front. Obviously on full turn the wider 315s are causing a problem. At this time I only see that they've touched the dirt layer, as there is no visible damage to the rubber. But, I suppose that this is reason enough to go back to the 12R22.5 tires. UPDATE: Looks like the turning stops are adjustable, and it should be possible to adjust to prevent this from happening in the future, removing it as a problem. That would make the 315s a viable option moving forward.

One thing I notice is that almost all the 12R22.5 tires I see are spinning at a lower rpm than 495, some as low as 482. Our current tires spin at 495. Speedo is off, and I do notice a lack of low-end power from a dead stop. If I go with a tire with only a 482 rpm am I going to notice any difference? How much more is the speedo going to be off?

RJ - The M170 look interesting. Were you able to find any long-term reviews of the tires? I'm wondering how they'll hold up with regard to weathering and the sun. Any comments on ride quality with them?

[buswarrior]

https://www.michelintruck.com/tires-and-retreads/selector/#!/

click on bus/RV only and click search.

13 tires to choose from, on each tire, click on "view details"

Click on "tire specifications"

275R are similar to the old 11R

12R are similar to 295/305

the 65 mph/75 mph rating is irrelevant to most busnuts, unless you are running a borderline/overweight front axle thru the desert in the summer time, at 80 mph... but if a busnut wants to obsess, go ahead, its your money to spend.

315 on a coach that wasn't intended to wear them, will allow the front of the coach to wander around, following oh so many more cracks and ruts, and have less bite in the wet and snow. Too much tire contact for the weight in a 40 or 35 footer.

Once you have a coach with too much tire under it for the weight and slide it trying to turn... you won't want it like that anymore... Go try an empty 45'r in a parking lot with snow on it for an immediate and dramatic experience.

The 45 footers in busnut hands will be another big variable, depending on your build decisions. It is much easier for a busnut to design a bigger variation in front axle loading in a 45 than in a 40, too heavy, or too light, depending on where one puts the heavy conversion bits. The big engines also allow for ideas to be acted upon that we'd have called foolish in the 2-stroke days, water and fuel weighs ~8lbs a US gallon... 150 gallons of liquid adds 1200 lbs... which bay shall we put that in? Bigger diesel generator outweighs the old small Onan gas job, big battery banks, solar panels, etc etc...

Many busnut 45's are light in the front end and would drive a lot better with a narrower steer tire than that 315.

Buses were/are notoriously overloaded in passenger service, a busnut has to work hard to replicate those conditions, and usually doesn't need as heavy a tire underneath.

Weigh the coach in fighting trim, opens up a world of possibilities.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[buswarrior]

On the topic of tires sitting weathering and basking in the UV sunshine...

You won't get anything of substance.

These tires are supposed to go DRIVE, not sit.

The RV/busnut market is too small, and frankly, we're a pain in the a$$ to the tire manufacturers and sellers.

The rest of the market wants the most miles per tire cost, get 'em installed, there's money being lost sitting here jawing about tire subtleties... busnuts buy tires to let them dry rot.

Where do these BS tire reviews come from? The same guy who has to pay a tech to reset the breaker on his generator is writing about his tire experience???

Commonly on these bus boards over the last 20 years, one may fairly safely consider that tires that get driven don't show weather cracking as soon as tires that sit.

A busnut's best defense is covering/shading the tires when the coach is not in use, drive the coach regularly, and hope for the best.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[luvrbus]

I never could wrap my head around the BS with tires on any of these boards.people seldom change tire sizes on their private vehicle but on a bus that is a different story 

[richard5933]

After reading all the comments, talking to Luke, and spending time online researching, here's what I've come up with:

• The tires on the bus now (Firestone FS400 315s) are in great condition. No sign of weathering or cracking, and lots of tread life left. Other than having a production date code of 4711 they are doing well.
• The problem with the tires being able to contact the air bags is easily remedied by adjusting the stop nut.
• There is no imminent need to replace the tires right now.
• While 12R22.5 might be a better option moving forward, the 315s are bought and paid for.
• I've got an unused FS400 mounted spare.

So, my decision right now is to do the following:

• When the bus is pulled out in the spring, I'll adjust the stop nuts to prevent any future air bag contact.
• I'll get the front wheels balanced.
• I'll keep a close eye on the tires and do frequent inspections.
• At the first sign of cracking or other problems I'll replace all 6 tires with new, probably going with the OEM 12R22.5 size. Right now the Toyo M170 is in the running as a viable option. It's priced right, has relatively good reviews, and spins at 490 rpm.

Sound like a reasonable plan?

[buswarrior]

Yes, adjust the stop nuts, and lose some turning radius.

Run tires until you can find cracking, sidewall, bead, or in the tread, all need to be watched.

Buy young tires.

Gary can finance a new tire of his own with the Google ad revenue from this thread.

You're welcome.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[luvrbus]

I wouldn't fool with the stop adjustment that is a vital adjustment needed on some power steering units maybe not on your GM   

[Geoff]

I put the Michelin XZA energy tires, and I swear I get better fuel mileage like they advertise.

[Dave5Cs]

I run 11 x 22.5 Toyo's ( Made in China)and have for 6 years and they are nice riding tires and have no wear at all. When parked they are on top of thick rubber mud flaps over gravel outside. I take the bus out to stretch her legs each month. I wash them with dish soap and water and a black scrub pad every three months to keep the outer oils agitated and check the pressures monthly if sitting and daily if on the road. Cover them when in the yard with vinyl tire covers but not always on those.