Surviving a Winter

[mmanning]

Does anyone either fulltime or operate their bus in cold climates like Minnesota during the winter?  How do you prepare? 

What extra insulation is needed, if any?  Do you have to insulate the bays?

What kind heat do you use?  Hydronic heating?  Wood stove?

Do you skirt your bus?

[buswarrior]

Many bus conversions are built for summer and southern use.

Extended sub-freezing conditions require specific design elements for easy/inexpensive freeze protection.

Otherwise you have to throw a lot of BTU at the bays and plumbing to stay operational.

Bay doors do not offer much protection, further insulation and heat retention strategies need to be taken in the bays.

Upstairs, heating with multiple sources allows you to throttle the energy usage according to conditions. You want a fuel burning appliance in the mix, that does not depend on the electric power failing...

40 000 btu is barely sufficient in a stock coach. Nobody complains of having too much heat... everyone describes the lengths they had to go to stay warm with too little...

Electric heaters at 1500 watts are 5000 BTU... you run out of extension cords and electric circuits in a hurry.

Burning a fuel becomes a necessity as the temps drop.

Skirting the coach has some advantages, it is very hard to stop the breezes into the front end of the coach, too many controls pass thru the floor.

Haybales work well, but mice like 'em too... boat shrink wrap has been a great success for stopping drafts where you can get it to work.

Once it snows, the snow also makes a good insulator/wind block.

This is a big topic, winter operations are very difficult in the wrong conversion, and really easy in the right one!

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

[mmanning]

Bay doors do not offer much protection, further insulation and heat retention strategies need to be taken in the bays.

Have you insulated your bays?  If so, do you have any pictures or video?  I'm very curious to see what that looks like.

Upstairs, heating with multiple sources allows you to throttle the energy usage according to conditions. You want a fuel burning appliance in the mix, that does not depend on the electric power failing...

I was thinking a combination of diesel fueled hydronic heat and gasifier wood stove would work well.  Have you used either?

Skirting the coach has some advantages, it is very hard to stop the breezes into the front end of the coach, too many controls pass thru the floor.

Haybales work well, but mice like 'em too... boat shrink wrap has been a great success for stopping drafts where you can get it to work.

I never thought of boat shrink wrap before, interesting idea.  I was thinking of something a little more less permanent though.  There are companies that create custom snap on skirting for RVs, I bet they could do something that could mimic the boat wrap.

In the past, I have had to winterize my campers and put them to bed for 6 months or more.  I'd really like to be able to use a bus at least a couple times in the winter. 

I like to complain about the Minnesota winters; but I grew up here, moved away, then moved back...so I really can't complain too loudly.

[mmanning]

Another question..

I have never had the opportunity to use a diesel fired furnace.  Do they produce a lot of moisture?  Propane furnaces need a dehumidifier, I was hoping this might be avoided with a diesel.

[Jim Blackwood]

Moisture mostly accumulates from the occupants. Any decent firebox will vent all combustion byproducts to the outside including the water.

I've used aluminized foam board for underpinning before around a camper. It was pretty effective and cheap if not particularly attractive. The thicker the better of course.

Jim

[DoubleEagle]

If you have a diesel fired heater like the kind that is used for a bunk heater in sleeper trucks, you should not need that, but you will also need more of them or a bigger system like the Webasto's. Since you are in firewood country, a wood stove might be good, but you have to have appropriate protections and spacing of materials. Insulation will be critical in sub-zero temperatures, all of the metal structures will sweat or form frost when the moist air hits them. Bolts or rivets that protrude the shell that are not insulated will frost up. The entire coach needs to be insulated, as well as the bays with tanks in them (which should have heaters). Your body and cooking activities will release moisture, and any fresh air from the outside might carry more moisture as well.

[windtrader]

hum.... One reason for owning a fuel sucking rolling back of scrap metal is to drive it to where you don't have to ask this question. Our mission is if it's hot head south, if it's cold head north until you feel just right. LOL

[richard5933]

...Propane furnaces need a dehumidifier, I was hoping this might be avoided with a diesel.

If your propane furnace add moisture to the inside of the bus that's an indication that either a) you're using a non-vented heater, or b) something is wrong with the furnace.

I know I'm poking at the hornets' nest here, but there is a reason that non-vented propane heaters are not permitted in many jurisdictions. Any and all CO that is produced by the heater is going directly into the living space. The only way to mitigate this is to open windows/doors to ventilate, which is very much opposite what one wants to do when insulating and battening down the hatches to stay warm in winter. Fall asleep once without proper ventilation and you may not wake up should the thing not be burning clean enough.

I'd really like to be able to use a bus at least a couple times in the winter. 

Unless you're planning to keep the bus warm between trips, you're still going to have to winterize after each trip. Might make more sense if you were talking about living it in through the winter, but for just a few trips it might not.

Not sure if we're as cold here in the Milwaukee area as you are, but it gets pretty cold. We're planning a trip over T-Day to Texas. Nights will already be below freezing, so we are planning to winterize before the trip. We'll use pink RV antifreeze to flush if necessary until we drive far enough south, and then we'll fill the water tank and flush out the lines. Before leaving Texas we'll have to prep for entry into the cold again.

We have more than enough heat to keep the cabin warm, but to keep pipes from freezing we'd have to run the heating systems all the time, not just during trips. Keeping the wet bay from freezing is another issue altogether - even with a heater and insulation it's just not reliably warm down there, at least not enough for me to trust it should the temps drop below 30 degrees. I can add all the insulation to the walls and doors as I want, but to do it properly I'd have to pull the tanks and add heat pads under them.

Maybe it makes more sense to plan your trips so that you can function without the plumbing system? Or, if the trips are long enough so that keeping the water flowing makes sense, find a good/quick way to winterize after the trips so that you don't need to keep things heated all winter.

[luvrbus]

hum.... One reason for owning a fuel sucking rolling back of scrap metal is to drive it to where you don't have to ask this question. Our mission is if it's hot head south, if it's cold head north until you feel just right. LOL

You are a strange duck Don lol 8)I have saw those type ducks

[gumpy]

Yes, we use the bus in the winter. Typically we take it to CO for Christmas. I have a diesel fired AquaHot hydronic heating system that works quite well. The biggest issue is winterizing the bus when we get back. Everything is frozen so there's usually no place to dump the tanks. Last year a guy with the city pulled a manhole cover for me! Then you have to blow out the water lines and add antifreeze. Last two years I have failed and broke the domestic water coil on my AquaHot twice. It's a real bitch to fix that! This year, I'm winterizing it in Oct or Nov and it's staying parked through the winter. At least that's the plan!

Minnesota sucks! I can't wait to get out of here and move to someplace with real winters, like Wyoming or Montana!

[luvrbus]

It really doesn't take much to keep a bus plumbing from freezing,I have been in WY at -20  and a 60w light would keep the plumbing and tanks from freezing,don't over think it when metal gets heat soaked the radiant heat will last for a long time   

[Bill B /bus]

During the conversion of the first bus, a GM PD4108, we knew that the coach would spend winters in Maine as our youngest was in high school. Therefore we insulated everything that could be insulated. Yes you lose some bay space but that leaves a heatable area. Spray foam on the inside. Filled the roof frames with foam. Filled the caps with foam. Insulated behind the front skin. Placed foam board under the driver area. Used a Webasto DBW2010 source for the various heaters. Sometimes temperatures dipped below zero but the  Webasto still cycled off. Used about 2 gallons of fuel per day during the cold part of winter. Thermostats set at 50 degrees F.
In the living area you need to prevent penetration of any metal from the outside. On the second conversion, an MCI 102A3, we used the ceramic blanket, 1/8" thick, to wrap all the metal framing, skin, and any area that was suitable for the application. Then cut and fit foam board and screwed 1/4" luan to the framing. Glued a second layer of luan to the first. Therefore no metal to conduct through the to the inside. Use thermal, dual pane, windows. Not cheap but worth the money for your comfort. Make insulating blankets to cover front windshields and side windows.

Worked for us.
Bill

[Bill B /bus]

During the conversion of the first bus, a GM PD4108, we knew that the coach would spend winters in Maine as our youngest was in high school. Therefore we insulated everything that could be insulated. Yes you lose some bay space but that leaves a heatable area. Spray foam on the inside. Filled the roof frames with foam. Filled the caps with foam. Insulated behind the front skin. Placed foam board under the driver area. Used a Webasto DBW2010 source for the various heaters. Sometimes temperatures dipped below zero but the  Webasto still cycled off. Used about 2 gallons of fuel per day during the cold part of winter. Thermostats set at 50 degrees F.
In the living area you need to prevent penetration of any metal from the outside. On the second conversion, an MCI 102A3, we used the ceramic blanket, 1/8" thick, to wrap all the metal framing, skin, and any area that was suitable for the application. Then cut and fit foam board and screwed 1/4" luan to the framing. Glued a second layer of luan to the first. Therefore no metal to conduct through the to the inside. Use thermal, dual pane, windows. Not cheap but worth the money for your comfort. Make insulating blankets to cover front windshields and side windows.

Worked for us.
Bill

[dtcerrato]

We've done OK in single digit below zero temps. The wet compartment is insulated with heat that can be diverted from one of the cabin furnaces. We rely mainly on LP for heating with electric for back up. OTR is fine as the original heating & ventilation system is still operational. While we were in the great white North in 2016 we noticed a lot of wood fired stove pipes penetrating the roof line of RVs. Seasoned Alaskans that thrive the winters have a minimum of 3 forms of heat. Wood, fuel oil, LP, & electric. At least three of the four mentioned in case one fails.

[TomC]

Insulation! I built my bus with 1X3 fir strips horizontally over the metal ribs thus giving me 2.25" of spray foam thickness. The coldest I was in was in Las Vegas where it got down to 28 at night, and two electric space heaters was sufficient to keep warm inside. My water system is under my bed and above the floor, so no freezing. Personally-winter sucks (this is why I live in So Cal). Most RV'rs stay away from freezing weather. Good Luck, TomC