Another reverse solenoid question for Spicer 4-speed.

[Bus Riders]

    Here is my experience with the reverse solenoid. I backed up from our camping site and the reverse switch stayed in the on position while driving home. The switch is a momentary switch that goes back to the off position after using it. Once it stayed on it screwed the switch and also burnt the wire to the back (starter solenoid). I replaced the reverse switch with a heavy duty one. I also replaced the wire from front of bus to the back to a circuit breaker and also the starter solenoid that sends power to the reverse solenoid. After all this I still had no power to the reverse solenoid. I replaced the wire that runs from the starter solenoid to the reverse solenoid. I have reverse now and also I have used WD-40 to loosen up the mechanical parts on top of the transmission where the reverse solenoid fork. My whole system is 12 volt but should have same electrical components as your 24 volt system.   

[gumpy]

So here's a quick update. I talked to Lou earlier today. We've confirmed that the switch and relay are working properly. So the problem is something in the solenoid However, due to it's position, he is physically unable to get to it or even see it from within the bus. When we departed, he was off to find a jack and some considerable lumber for blocking with the intent of getting the bus safely up so he could get under it and investigate the solenoid setup.  I've given him the 3 most likely problems to check: loss of ground, not getting 24v, and binding of the linkage. I actually think it's likely to be the linkage, from looking at the photos, but the other two should be quick and easy tests with his volt meter so might as well rule them out early.

BTW, Lou, if you don't get anywhere with the 3 checks above, you should consider removing the 24v wire from the solenoid and testing for continuity across the 24v terminal to ground (i.e. check the coil for continuity).  Call me if you need further explanation on this.


craig

[lou432]

Thanks again Craig !!! I did get a stubby bottle jack and blocked her up but was so dang tard from laying on my belly or chest with little leverage I had to give up for the day. Then researched ramps on here and figured with my single axle I could reduce the length and overall weight of the plywood by half but my calculations are still approx 140 lbs per 16" W x 4`L with 4" step/run  and 13 layers @ 9.75 high would still weigh approx 140lbs . Dang that`s heavy and still need more height? for all but slithering around under.   Would solve my jack issue and be safer?
Gota drive 800 miles tomorrow eve for work so may Build`m next weekend ? Cant take me more than a few hours I`m thinking.
    Whats the best pneumatic stubby bottle jack out there to buy? Trying to work smart not hard :-)
   And what other light weight material can a set of ramps be made from??
   I just wana get under her safely and check the solenoid out as Craig described .
   I was able to get a 1/8 gauge braided wire threaded in the solenoid  but unable to move the Armature into reverse. Guessing because the cylinoid on top of the transmission bound. Either burned up or too tight as Craig describe.

[zubzub]

air over jack from HF plus whatever little thing will lift it enough to get the air over in.  easier a few  lifts going between 2 jacks to lift a bus enough to work under.  you need to put blocking under jacks as you go, and

Never get under the bus that is sitting only on jacks

, block/crib the body as you go.  2 air overs would be ideal, but I use one bottle jack and one air over, and lots of jacking.....but that is for fancy work, if you just want to get under there, run up ramps, with blocking between axle and body should get the height you need.....oh yeah, without  reverse you might have trouble getting up on ramps....

[lou432]

Hello again folks. Update. I trouble shot the switch and teethe relay and all is fine no shorts brakes 24 volts as need.
   She is parked on decent level ground a slight incline but soft Earth. I have a hand crank 20 ton bottle jack which is  mounds of work !
  I could only climb under her so far and got a bit aggravated and disappointed to say the least.

    I have located a Truck Service mechanic that has his own shop locally where I'm from.
  And plan on driving it over there tomorrow to get it up on ramps and or Jax and maybe cool the tires off to see if I can get to the solenoid. My question is this .....

    I backed her in where she sits now since I brought it back from Florida,  the solenoid working fine But from a different direction. Not sure I can pull her out and make the corner coming out of the driveway, can I put her in neutral and have my friend and his farm tractor pull her backwards while I readjust the steering ( without damaging  anything) and then make the corner to continue forward get to its destination.
  . I'm guessing 8 or 10 feet at best.
  I'm going to try this at 7 a.m. tomorrow Eastern Time.
 

[DoubleEagle]

You will make it out okay, it will be easy compared to what you have already been through.

[gumpy]

My question is this .....

   I backed her in where she sits now since I brought it back from Florida,  the solenoid working fine But from a different direction. Not sure I can pull her out and make the corner coming out of the driveway, can I put her in neutral and have my friend and his farm tractor pull her backwards while I readjust the steering ( without damaging  anything) and then make the corner to continue forward get to its destination.
 . I'm guessing 8 or 10 feet at best.

Short answer is yes. Caveat is make sure you attache the tow chain or rope to a proper place. The engine cradle is NOT the proper place. Nor is the bumper.  You can probably use the tow hitch, if so equipped. Just be gentle. Otherwise, get it around the axle. If it's level ground and not too soft, he should have no problem pulling you in neutral.

You might find that if you move it forward a bit, the reverse solenoid will magically start working!

[lou432]

Thanks Craig ! I was thinking the same thing and hoping it would do it but it did not but I did not have to use the tractor as we were on a slight decline when I pulled out so I was able to Coast backwards readjust my steering and get out of the driveway. I didn't have the time or the equipment and to be honest with you the gumption to further my fixing it.
  So I drove it to a local truck mechanic he can at least get to the solenoid. He does not have a pit. But he has ramps and Jack's. If I need another solenoid where should I start? Purchasing one that is.
  Another question is can I just loosen the slack up in that solenoid and pull on the Rope that I have attached to it now? Or better yet is there any other way to avoid putting another solenoid on? I know I'm looking for the easy way out but I'm a bit disappointed and perplexed at its location and the difficulty of adjusting it or even getting to it much less replacing it. So another words ,HELP !! :-)
  He is going to grease my slack adjusters while he has the tires off so there's a positive note. Thanks and Have a great day guys!

[gumpy]

If it's bad and needs to be replaced, I would suggest contacting Luke or C&J Bus Repair in Bloomington, MN. (cjbusrepair.com) Either will have it or know where you can get it.

Someone else commented earlier in this thread that they have replaced that electric solenoid with an air solenoid. That may be something you want to consider if you have more
problems with this one.

I'm hoping it's just the connections binding that are causing your problems.

Have him adjust the brakes while he's greasing the slack adjusters.

[lou432]

Well, selinoid is getting juice and probably needs replacement . But the truck mechanic figured out that by swinging the wire/rope I tied to the armature around from passage side pull ti driver side pull I can get into reverse..yaayyyyyy!!!  Heading to Syracuse in a few minutes to her summer home on Sylvan lake just north of the city.
  266 miles to go and I'll keep u all in the loop .
Thanks again for all your ideas and reply  Really does refresh the soul !!!

[DoubleEagle]

Easy as can be, you are on your way! What could possibly go wrong?

[gumpy]

Louis,

I sent you a message on your Facebook regarding a possible replacement source.

craig

[busfan]

Similar problem here, my 68 gmc Suburban Fishbowl 4503A with a 4 speed spicer is doing a very similar dance.  Bought it, guy delivered 50 miles in the august heat, reversed it in parked it, bam sister wants me to move it and the reverse solenoid does not work..

Does it need to engage in first then go thru neutral to 2nd?? I keep ending up in 2nd (from neutral, brother in law helping at back). My spicer does not want to shift into first even when it is not running, however the guy who delivered it ground the living crpoa out of it :|

Seems to like to bind and not shift while engine is running after grinding it a little myself arg!

On the mci it sounds like you might pull lever opposite? On the GMC you open up the tranny door on the pass side and the thing is staring mocking.

How far should the rod pull out an inch?  Seems to sit a half inch out as is.  If I pry a large screwdriver in the crack where the rod is while in neutral going to hurt anything?  Thanks for any help, George

[busfan]

found a couple posts that might help, posing them here..
ZubZub
Need to be gentle with an old bus.  Open up the rear hatches and have a look see.  Make sure you chock the wheels and have one person up front gently moving the shifter, another in the engine bay, gently working out what is stuck.  Hopefully something simple....
Not too gentle, a little reefing may be required, oh and grease, everywhere you see  zerk.

My 4104 does this when I forget to completely push the clutch all the way in or get sloppy with my shifts.

The solution is to go the rear where the two vertical levers attach to the two rods going into the trans. You will note that they are not lined up together. One will be appx straight up and is in neutral. The other one is hung up.

Have someone hold in the clutch all the way in while you pull the other lever upright and even with the other. This takes a little effort but if an old guy like me can do it anyone can!!

I've probably done this 20 times in 72,000 mi but it solves the problem.

This is all assuming nothing is broken or loose. These levers could be loose on the rods and your linkage is probably badly worn, most are."

FloridaCliff L&S,
Cliff..Baker4106My 4106 has a stud installed on top of the transmission with a shifting fork kept on the stud with a castlelated nut.   When the nut loosened or stripped the threads it allowed the shifting fork to come off the shifting lever in the transmission leaving it stuck in gear.   By loosing the nut, I reinstalled the shifting fork on the shifting lever,retightened the nut and shifted it out of gear.   I then replaced the nut with a new one and it has worked good for 3 years.

I had the same issue baker4106 had om my 4905.

You may have to take it off the stud to get it free or just loosen it up.

Once free you can see how it can get stuck and how it should be just free enough to move, but not too loose.

Mine was moving around like a ball joint, but once fixed shifted smooth.

I have also learned to square the shift pattern with the Spicer, not meander over like in a syncro transmission.
bevans6:
There is/should be a grease nipple to lube the throw-out bearing - is that still there?  Anyway, I would start by disconnecting the linkage at the top under the floor cut-out to separate the whole pedal linkage from the clutch meccanno set on the gearbox, , and start playing with it to see what is stuck.  Fiddle about and look for what is binding.  Mine had seized heim joints on the aforementioned air assist cylinder, fwiw.

Brian

gus:
As Len said, on GMCs there are numerous clevises and pins from the pedal to the clutch, a few worn pins and wallowed out clevises multiply into a great big slack in the system. I spent many hours on my 4104 replacing all these things. I found the cross shaft under the driver also lose in its mount.

However, the biggest problem was the bellcrank at the firewall where the clutch rods connect and make a 90* turn to the clutch rods. The arm holes in the bellcrank were completely worn through the bushings into the arm castings.

Even after all this my clutch still dragged. I just learned to live with shutting down the engine to get to first gear, after that I was careful to shift down into first in traffic just before coming to a stop, it takes very little movement to make it easy. This is hard on the clutch leg though if one stops for a long traffic light! When that happens I just shut down to shift. A nuisance but doable.

[chessie4905]

You should also check shift tower behind engine on firewall. There is a stack of short levers that transfer motion of rods that go through central tunnel to shift lever bell cranks at back to connect to shifter up front. Those short levers connect to rods that go to the transmission. Inside each lever on the stack usually has a needle bearing. The vertical shaft they pivot on has a facing down grease fitting that transfers grease to the levers. On our former 4104, some of those levers were worn so much, bearing was completely gone. Also the pin and holes where the rods connected were egg shaped. At that time you could still buy the vertical shaft and new levers. Wow, what a difference. Movement at shift lever was cut in half and now precise. We greased that shaft regularily at every service, including the pivots up front above front axle. There are an incredible number of grease fittings on these coaches. Copy the location picture in the service manual and laminate it for use at every service.