Bus crashes

[windtrader]

The TPMS thread got me thinking about the causes for bus crashes. As a noob here there seems to be a lot of discussion about tires. Mostly failing tires mess up the fender and undercarriage but rarely do buses crash off the road, flip, or otherwise sustain major problems.

Obviously, it is vital to have tires that are safe.  "Old" or "aged out" tires has no clear specification to define when they are no longer safe. The CHP has vehicle inspection stations along the highways, one goal is ensuring heavy trucks are safe to travel on the road. If the CHP deems a truck road safe, that is a green light for me. Interesting, that the CHP does not check tire dates, only condition. This is from a first hand conversation with an inspection officer at the Fairfield station.
   
https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/safety/research-and-analysis/large-truck-crash-causation-study-analysis-brief
First off, 87% of heavy truck crashes are driver related. Of non-driver related causes, Table 2 lists 19 causes for heavy vehicle ( > 10k).  Number 1 (29%) is brake related.  Bad tires is near the bottom (6%).

Back to tires. Common causes of tire failure are underinflation, irregular wear due to mechanical issues, and road hazards. 
https://www.tires-easy.com/blog/top-causes-of-tire-failure/
http://www.truckinginfo.com/channel/maintenance/article/story/2013/06/5-deadly-tire-sins.aspx

This is just as an FYI, not meant to start as long dialog about yeah but.. as there are plenty differences between commercial truck drivers and we recreational drivers. Just thought it was interesting for me as I search for coaches that have older "aged" tires that appear fit for duty and keeping that in perspective with all the other factors and criteria being weighed before choosing a coach.

For example, after this analysis, I'll put far more weight on a documented well done full brake job over some "old" tires. I feel a lot better that common sense and frequent visual checking of the tire's condition will suffice. Common sense tells me failing brakes is a far greater potential serious hazard.

I'm sure a lot are going well duh....  but again as a noob trying to find the right compromises it has been a useful diversion. I suspect a few others may readjust their focus too.

[lostagain]

It is true that most bus nuts do not have the professional driving experience that myself and a few others have. It explains a lot of newbie questions and comments. It is a lot worse on Facebook than this board. And keep in mind that most people behind the wheel of an air brake class A motorhome don't have a lot of knowledge or experience driving it or maintaining it or understanding that air system, or brakes. Also a lot of those people only use the RV a couple of weeks a year.

It is true also that the age of tires, in commercial or private use, is ignored in the US and Canada. I have a CDL for tractor/trailer and buses, and in either case, it is not required to check tire age during the pre trip inspection. Only condition like tread wear, correct inflation, and damage. And, like you point out, DOT doesn't care either, anywhere that I am aware of.

Yes, most accidents, in commercial or private vehicles, are caused by driver error, negligence, inattention, distraction, etc.  Most tire blow outs are caused by under inflation that creates heat. That could be largely prevented by paying attention to the tires. TPMS help to an extent I suppose.

I have heard that some countries in Europe legislate the age of tires ?

In most cases, I find that pre trip inspections are mostly done in the cab, on paper or on the Qualcomm. It is interesting to watch truckers at a truck stop start their rigs in the morning and drive off... The same goes on the last day of a bus rally where most start it and go as soon as they have enough air to release the brakes.

Sure everything felt good and in good order the day before, so off we go the next morning. We know the rig intimately, so we get lulled into thinking a thorough pre trip isn't necessary. I am guilty of that myself. But one has to pull up their socks and get with it. It is a legal and moral liability to be as diligent as possible. 

RJ Long, a veteran professional bus driver, has given seminars on pre trip inspections at bus rallies, and observed bus nuts  drive off without even a walk around. I have offered to do pre trip talks at rallies too, but with lack of interest, it doesn't happen.

This is a lot of rambling for nothing that anybody here doesn't know.

The moral of it all is: it is all the driver's responsibility, and liability, to keep his vehicle in good repair, and to drive it safely.

JC

[Scott & Heather]

When buses blow tires, bad things happen. Which is why I just finished replacing every single one of my tires. All eight are less than 9 months old. Btw, every crash in every one of these photos had fatalities, and every crash was caused by a tire failure:



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[lostagain]

What caused the tire failures? Maybe just bad luck, like hitting a sharp object on the road that blows the tire rapidly. Maybe the tires were marginal in terms of condition, wear, and age at the start of the day. It is up to the driver to decide whether he drives that bus or not given its mechanical condition. But the problem in the trucking and busing industry is the pressure from the employer to keep driving. The driver should refuse to drive a bus with marginal tires, but if he does, he will be promptly replaced by someone who is not as difficult. Have you often seen tour bus drivers walk around their bus to check tires and other things? No, they have a smoke, or talk to other drivers or passengers, assuming that everything is ok with the bus. When I drive charters, staying in hotels, I see other bus drivers in the morning just sitting in their seat filling out paper work while the bus is idling. Some of that paper work is the pre trip form. But I don't see them checking tires with a hammer. They just assume that the tires are fine, because after all, they were fine when they parked the bus the night before. Some of the late model buses have TPMS that would alert a driver of under inflation. But you have to walk around and bend over and feel with your hands to look for cuts and tears, and wear. Some companies are very good at maintenance and encourage drivers to do pre trips and ongoing inspections. Others are much less so, pushing drivers into unsafe situations that can, and do result in accidents.

[Geoff]

What's next, you tube videos from 1960 high school​ driving class to make everyone nauseous?
It is usually safe to preach safety, but not with me,  I'm tired of it.  We (or me) have heard enough.  My bus is safe.

--Geoff

[kyle4501]

Obviously, it is vital to have tires that are safe.  "Old" or "aged out" tires has no clear specification to define when they are no longer safe. The CHP has vehicle inspection stations along the highways, one goal is ensuring heavy trucks are safe to travel on the road. If the CHP deems a truck road safe, that is a green light for me. Interesting, that the CHP does not check tire dates, only condition. This is from a first hand conversation with an inspection officer at the Fairfield station.

To each their own . . .
I am amazed at the casual concern some have concerning tires.
As Scott has shown, tire failures can leave a significant impact.

Isn't the CHP is the enforcement arm of the litigation part of the government? So, when it comes to my tires, I am placing my trust in what the tire engineer has to say about tire life.

Cause of tire failure are many & complex. Some damage is cumulative, so the tire fails because of something seemingly small . . . . .

A very good friend recently had a steer tire blow. Tire was only 6 years old & always properly maintained/ inflated.

While I visually inspect my tires at every chance I get, I still can't see inside the sidewall. So, I will replace them based on position & age as I deem appropriate.

YMMV
Seems there is lots more to tire rubber compounding than most mortals can comprehend.

[DKO]

I do my best to keep good tires on things but I appreciate the reminders.

Davy

[windtrader]

Good discussion and different viewpoints. Pictures of fatal bus crashes can be posted all day long; the problem is unless one reviews the specific incident and investigation it is unknown the true cause why the tire blew out. Observations as posted above could argue that driver inattention, for whatever reason, to perform an adequate inspection prior to starting a journey, was the root cause as the tire likely showed some visible defect or unusual condition warranting a tire change or inflating to correct pressure or ...

I'll state again, I' a noob so have zero miles on the road in a 15 ton motor vehicle but it seems other than some serious road hazard causing a blowout, nearly all other incidents can be headed off by a through walk around and tire pressure check before leaving and every x miles while underway. And no matter what's been done to prevent a tire failure, there is to do if road debris presents itself with insufficient reaction time to maneuver around it to avoid blowing a tire and crashing off the road.

Clifford made the comment a TPMS is not going to prevent all tire issues and I'm wondering now how effective they are in regular service.

How many posts here have said a TPMS prevented a dangerous situation other than to indicate tire pressure is low which would have been determined by a through walk around before starting the journey?

[Scott & Heather]

FYI, I read each of the articles associated with the photos. One bus had a tire failure due to age. Another one had tire failure and the article mentioned it had a tire tread depth that violated inspection. The other ones were just listed as tire failure. I wasn't posting the photos to discuss semantics, I just was countering slightly the OP initial post statement that said this and I quote:

"Mostly, failing tires mess up the fender and undercarriage but rarely do buses crash off the road, flip, or otherwise sustain major problems."

I can't agree totally with that statement and the photos I posted were just to support my position. That's all. Not trying to scare anyone into being safety conscious. I don't have seat belts in my bus, so don't put me in that camp lol. But yeah, buses can flip and crash badly from failed tires. You bet.


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[Jon]

I recently spent nearly a week at a seminar that took place at the Michelin facilities in SC. The people that design and build the tires are in lockstep when it comes to the use of old tires. After 7 years they will not even consider the casing safe. I know others on here have previously stated that is because Michelin just wants to sell tires, but throughout the seminar their entire focus was not on selling tires, but making them last for about 700,000 to 900,000 miles and as many as 4 recaps in commercial use.

When we did tire failure forensics it became abundantly clear apart from age the fastest and most common way to have a tire failure is driving at low pressure, and in fact if a tire is run at 20% less pressure than is required for its load, the tire should be carefully inspected for damage before allowing it to be used again. There are many other reasons for tire failures including improper puncture repairs, but the bottom line is you can choose to run on older tires but you better be skilled at handling a sudden tire failure.

[Nel]

All these reasons for tire failure have some merit but one other reason to add to list is speed . Owning a 4104 that travels at comfortable 55 to 60 mph average , I'm running on some pretty old and sidewall cracked tires , I always check them for pressure and heat and at that speed they barley get warm. I just did 1900 miles and the tires were fine the whole time. If you think traveling with a 15 ton machine at 70 to 80 mph is for you then get ready to react quickly if something goes wrong because your going to need to at that speed . I see it with travel and boat trailers all the time, these guys pass me at 75 mph and sure enough down the road there they are sitting with a shredded tire wondering why, I'm sure.  Slow down and enjoy the ride especially when you have precious cargo aboard like your family. Like the many warning signs on the highway traveling to Tn.read " IF YOUR IN THAT MUCH OF A RUSH, NEXT TIME LEAVE EARLIER"   Nelson

[Slug]

Most important tyre is the steers at 5 years they go to the back to year 7 then they go to the bin
At $200 to $300 cheap safety, age of tyres is your worst enemy blow a back tyre and it makes a mess blow a steer and luck plays a major part you never know could be halfway round a sweeping 60mph corner
In Australia we need a heavy licence and most states have yearly goverment safety checks even private converted buses, with age and illness yearly medical test to maintain your heavy licence that can be down graded to a car only licence
We are speed limited to 60mph/100kph in all truck/bus/motorhomes over 4.5ton and 70mph/110kph on limited signed freeways for cars apart from the Northern Territory with 130kph zones and a 200k stretch unlimited mainly used by world car companys to test in 45d c high speed runs
Tyres here get a beating as we have large amounts of dirt roads as well as some poor potholed main country highways some dirt roads in Western AU, South AU and New South Wales ect have 600+mile dirt main roads that are maintained once or twice a year
So we all have a tendency to check our tyres every stop, just part of the habit driving here and a requirement nothing worse than tyre problem 700 miles from the nearest tyre shop
Love the out back so much space and isolation filled with intersting people
James
And 16 ton of M A N coach that loves dirt roads   

[bigred]

Believe me guy's .I am not down playing the importance of good tires ,but even new tires can fail .A coach that belonged to a church in Statesville N C crashed in Tenn. on the way back from a conference  I don't remember how many were killed (seems like maybe five)but it is my understanding that this bus had newer tires .Blew a front tire ,jumped the median and hit a tractor/trailer .The driver of the truck was one of the casualty's.

[lostagain]

Geoff, your bus is safe, I do believe you, you are a mechanic, and like mine and many others, it is well maintained, with nothing that would upset a DOT officer at a random road check.

But, as you must know, many not so experienced bus nuts just don't know, or care.

I drive charter buses for a couple of companies who are not "tired of safety". The buses go in the shop every 30 days for an inspection. The drivers are trained and retrained to do pre trips and ongoing inspections, and safe defensive driving. It is their culture. Other smaller operators with tighter budgets have much less lofty standards. I wouldn't drive for them. I don't need a job, I do it part time for fun.

JC

[Utahclaimjumper]

 The other side of the coin is>>when bus and car collide,, bus wins!!>>>Dan