Options, Advice, Decisions Part 1

[muldoonman]

Bought my Prevost XL Mirage 2 stroke Silver 8V92TA/5 Speed Auto over 6 years ago from the original owners after Fella passed away. Converters  drove it down to Wyoming, brand new,  for professional conversion (Cole Conversions, long gone) from Prevost Factory. Set foot in it in 1992 when owner came by my yard to show me his prize. A little under $500,000 for conversion. It was never outside as it has spent it's life in a cover,enclosed barn. They had it in a climate controlled barn for 20 years. 75 degrees. Chassis/motor had a little over 50,000 miles. Has 88,000 on it now. I paid $52,000 for it and and have wrapped up over $25,000 over the years with all the upgrades, fridge, flat screens, motion sat, and that don't count new tires, batteries, Cruiseair AC work, and air leak chasing and parts from Prevost numerous times and still will go down in a week or 2 in back. Still looks new from outside and in and still under cover.. 2 Strokes runs like a scalded dog. No problems. With these you buy, drive, enjoy and when you sell you hope you can recoup a little back.  I don't think I would get anywhere close to what I got in it. Run Central and Gulf Coast area of Texas and if I ever have trouble , Stewart Stevenson is where it will go. They still have a couple mechanics that will work on them. I check/call occasionally to see if old guys have died.   If I buy another one or upgrade, probably will go 4 stroke but this 2 stroke doesn't scare me. Been a good one.   Good luck.

[buswarrior]

Yup, analysis time is now verging on wasted time.

The busnut socio-economic situation is buying whatever condition/age fits the budget.
From purchasing a factory conversion, to a stationary, blown out relic to live out of on the welfare.
Same rules.

And periodically, a busnut chooses one that simply caught her fancy.
Whatever mechanicals come with it, that's what you get.

Don't be fooled by the busnut excuse: You do NOT convert a bus to go camping.

You convert a bus to convert a bus. To fool with mechanicals, design your own stuff, have something to do. A fun hobby, ONLY if you and the significant other knew ahead of time that camping is the sideshow.

Are you camping or are you bus converting?

As noted, fuel economy difference is meaningless between engines. If you can't afford 6 mpg, you can't afford 8 mpg, and more importantly, you can't afford to maintain the chassis in a safe condition. Go buy 24 gallons of diesel engine anti-freeze for a flush and fill? Tires at $500 a piece? Every 100 miles, the spread is theoretically 4 gallons of fuel. Stopping for a good burger and fries is a more serious financial decision.
Most busnuts do not drive thousands of miles, they drive hundreds.

And finding competent technicians for any engine, any vehicle, is tough. You will be screwed by crappy technicians. car, boat, bus...
Go on the truck forums and read about the number of guys blowing up fresh S60 "re-builds"...
Armchair rhetoric, the chattering classes find amusement in mumbling about engine types, and when pressed, change the subject...

Age and availability, higher end DIY busnuts buy coaches as they roll off the end of useful commercial service, typically in the 15-20 year old time frame.
This busnut competes with the lowest tier of commercial operators for available coaches.
The D model is just getting old enough to be in this group, hence their current rarity.

Why are the buses not selling?

The good bus conversions do not get advertised. Everyone knows someone, and the good coaches are passed along the social circle chains.
Same for buying a seated coach, the good ones are moving, the sitting ones keep sitting.
Beware the small lot guy who thought he'd get rich with buses... once he gets rid of the ones he has, he'll not buy a bus again... he got burned, and he'll burn you trying to get out.

If it is being advertised, right away, the question is why wasn't it gobbled up?

Time for dreamy typing is drawing to a close, now it is time for action, the next report should be about the bus conversions and busnuts you have met, and some pictures.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[TomC]

Lots to consider when choosing your systems. I believe in the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid). All my systems are manual-meaning I have to through a switch or valve. Since I don't have a lot of electrical needs-up and beyond my 3 rood airs, I do have 50 amp service-but only use one leg of the plug. My bus is wired straight 120vac along with my generator. Then I don't have to be worrying about balancing the load between the two legs when the generator is running. Granted that means I only have 50 amps at a campsite-but that never has been a problem-even with 2-10gal water heaters.
Before you try something, run it past us. I'm sure there's someone that has tried it successfully or not. Good Luck, TomC

[Oonrahnjay]

... Don't be fooled by the busnut excuse: You do NOT convert a bus to go camping.

You convert a bus to convert a bus. To fool with mechanicals, design your own stuff, have something to do. A fun hobby, ONLY if you and the significant other knew ahead of time that camping is the sideshow.

Are you camping or are you bus converting?  ...
happy coaching!
buswarrior   

    Yep, and "bus converting" is a commitment.  If you buy a bus and all the equipment and cannot (or choose not) to finish the conversion, you're lucky to get 10 cents on the dollar if you sell off.  *You* know what it costs but what it's worth to anybody else is about nothing.
    If you buy an already-converted bus, you won't lose so much when you want/need to sell; you'll lose a lot, but not so much.
    It's a harsh reality but that's the way it is.  (DAMHIK)
BH, NC  USA

[windtrader]

@muldoonman - What you have is clearly a classic definition of finding the diamond in the rough. If your bus had 55k from new, then it is a basically a new bus, so naturally any commercial motor is going to be as good as new. If warrantied on mileage only, you'd have years left to drive worry free. It must be one of a handful stored for 20 years in climate controlled conditions. No surprise your experience has been totally uneventful.

@buswarrior - So much wisdom in your advice. Thank you.

Mechanical hobby or camping lodging? Excellent, insight, and probing question. Motivations. At present, it feels like 60/40, desire to unmoor from the house and start spending more time on the road, staying a week or a month, here or there, and returning home for awhile. Being a lifelong DIYer, all things including auto mechanics, electrical, construction, plumbing, etc. a conversion seems like a huge but doable project. My shop has most all tool except heavy vehicle mechanics like a dolly for a one ton plus motor and drive line parts weighing hundreds of pounds. I'm not planning anything fancy nor trying to recreate any of the luxury fit and finish in many RVs, so I figure it should be a rather uncomplicated build. That said, even with the best planning, I'm fully prepared it will cost twice as much and take twice as long and suffer through plenty of reworks. Just the nature of the beast.

Nice reminder that bus maintenance costs are substantial and multiple times more costly than any automobile. Thanks for bringing reality back to the discussion that average annual miles a hobby bus conversion typically see is quite minimal. In the back of my mind, this sort of rattled around. I ask myself how confident will this rig goes 50k without major issues. That is like 10 years of driving. All the other costs fall in line with that sort of reference. Then one says how much maintenance is needed for every 5k miles, a year on the road. This really does remove a number of issues such as mpg difference, tire costs, fluid changes. On average, with some luck, must years will not even incur that expense. Never know, buying right, one might even go 30k and not have to do much at all.

Yeah, I did wander into a couple commercial trucker forums and that was a bad idea in hindsight. That is where I got worried about motors just blowing up on the road. The constant remedy was good PM but that is a fairly costly proposition. But truckers have very different objectives than a hobby bus nut.

One concern I have about getting a newer coach is as you say, some are still in service and coming out. You don't need to be a genius to figure out which bus in the fleet is going out. Most know which ones are likely to have a big spend for some major service the soonest. Who wants to buy that one? And you can bet the ones on the low end of the price range already suffer issues or are really near some event sure to make the owner really sad. But there are buses that do come on at 300-500k so plenty of life left but certainly the price reflects this.

What started me looking at the newer ones is the CARB DPF enforcement and catching a deal on one that operators felt was not worth the investment. May be a bit late now but still do find some not converted and forced off the road. Once converted to a bus title, it can get back on the road but this is a low percentage market.

Agreed, that insights from you all, the bus nut community has offered enough guidance to get me to the next step. If I decide that 2 strokes are in play, I've got plenty to pursue. If 4 strokes is the target, things will progress more slowly, especially if I stick with a 40'. There are many more 45' 4 strokes available and I just don't want that long a bus.

Thanks again to all.

Will post updates on buses that look worthwhile.

[DubLloyd]

Since I was 40. Kinda reached that 2nd childhood back then, 20 yrs ago. It began with VW busses. My first, 69 model. Replaced the engine, drove it from Cody Wyoming to to Mississippi when I moved back home to reside on family farm. My 2nd bus, 65 barn door. Holes in the floor and busted up glass.
Even back then, I always wanted a BIG BIG bus. Its just something about a bus. When I came across my Silverside on Ebay, I had to have it. I must confess, with a WDub, it was easy to keep it goin with bailing wire, hand crafted wooden parts, and dirty fingernails. I may not be diesel engine savy, yet, no computer, no high tech add-ons. But when I drive it down the road, everybody stops and looks.. you pull up to fuel up, all want to talk about the Silverside. A true attention getter and conversation piece. And all this while in the conversion stage. And in a few years, with a couple thousand dollars spent, aluminum polished, with cherry red painted roof and trim, and matching 1971 VW Karman Giha in tow, This old guy will be the show stopper at the fuel stop. 

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[TomC]

If you're in CARB territory, if you have a single bus for personal use RV, you're exempt from smog laws. Good Luck, TomC

[Scott & Heather]

One other thought to leave with you as you contemplate diving off the deep end, ideas of what you can do to your bus are endless. This is a before and after of our current 1992 102C3. We have an 8v92 turbocharged Detroit set to 500hp and yes I've had her running 85 mph before. Roof has been cut off and raised 8", stainless has been swapped out for aluminum flat panels to give it the "newer" look, front and rear caps are renaissance caps, 24.5" Alcoa rims add a nice touch. we converted this mostly in 13 weeks over a memorable summer in my in laws backyard. This is our second self conversion. Our first coach was a 1984 MCI 9 which we raised the roof 9" on and converted it from a seated coach into a home we lived and traveled in for almost 6 years. We love this life but I don't recommend it to everyone. Anyway, enough chatter, here's pics of our MCI 9 and after that the before and after of our current coach, the 102C3:





And finally a link to over 900 photos of our conversion process with our first coach. I have pics of the second coach conversion but haven't had time to upload them yet.
https://goo.gl/photos/GVtNRniG2RBXPuXW9

Scott






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[windtrader]

@Tom - Thanks for the CARB tip. In fact, that is what I am trying to leverage in "buy low". Buses are sitting or going out of service due to operators deciding not to do the DPF conversion. This means those coaches are no longer viable commercial vehicles in CA. Even churches, not for profits, private schools, etc. must register commercial. The used bus market already suffers low demand, this further limits the potential buyers. Yesterday, the owner told me he has sold them off outside CA, so there is some market outside CA for them.   

[Zephod]

The keep it simple thing makes sense. Keep it simple, keep it cheap. I know I went overboard on mine turning it into a home with rooms and doors but heck, wood is cheap. Don't think I've put more than $500 of wood into my bus. I dread to think how much my conversion cost me. I've not tallied it all to be honest though I have 90% of the receipts.

As for DEF, my work bus goes through DEF at a rate of knots. I reckon on having to put in a maintainence report every 2 weeks or so that it needs DEF. My work bus does about 150 miles a day, of which I drive about 100 miles (I don't do the midday run).

A DEF conversion might save your bus from the scrap heap. Germany just outlawed older diesel cars because of emissions. Thus, if you have an older diesel car in Germany, you're now not allowed to own or operate it!

I'm trying to keep my conversion simple but keep coming up with neat projects to add to it. The latest is extra cabling to get the reversing horn working. Defeated on that temporarily by the lack of somewhere to route the cables. I'll sort that out soon enough though!


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[TomC]

If you have an electronic engine with EGR, then you can add the DPF. In order to go the full route to get both DPF and DEF, the complete engine has to be replaced with new.
If CARB ever gets to the point that I can't run my 3406B Cat anymore, I'll just have it replaced with a Cummins ISL, since the RV rating is 450hp and 1200lb/ft torque-more than enough power. Good Luck, TomC