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[convert2diesel]

Hi folks:

Name is Bill and still wet behind the ears as far as busses are concerned.  Brand new, still have the price tags on.  Don't know if this is the appropriate place for an introduction but here goes.  This may be a little long winded but it looks as if I have caught the bus bug.

Maybe a little background would help.  Over the next couple of years, my wife and I want to acquire/fabricate/modify/or just fall over a method to see this continent without being held hostage by airlines, hotels and or restaurants.  Ergo our interest in doing a bus conversion.

We have been avid campers and RVers now for close to 30 years so are very familiar with stick and staple offerings and the blatant lack of quality inherent in the industry.  Currently trying to re-engineer the front bunk on our current hybrid trailer and spending a great deal of time conjuring up physical punishments in the event that I ever meet the accountant that came up with the original design.  But I digress.

Our needs are simple.  We have no need for some 45 foot asphalt pounder nor do we need to take all of our worldly possessions with us on our travels (we have a nice house south of Ottawa on the Rideau River where we can store our stuff).  In other words, we don't need a bunch of storage nor the ability to park our Smartcar under the bus (will be flat towing a suitable toad behind).  A few strategically placed cubby holes for camping equipment, spare parts, various connections and a tool box will suffice.

I have been lurking around this and other boards now for close to a month and have come to the conclusion that in general, we should be looking at a 35 foot high floor, 102 inch transit bus (40 foot if necessary). I may take some flack for this but prove me wrong.  Have read all the justifications for highway coaches and do agree on a number of points.  However, they are just too big and way beyond our needs, not to mention my wife has to want to drive it.  Additionally, we frequent Provincial, State and Federal parks and in many instances, they don't like anything larger than 35 feet.

Power wise, I am very comfortable with large commercial diesel engines.  The ones used in busses are tiny in comparison to some of the stuff I have been exposed to so doing an in-frame on a series 50 does not give me a case of the galloping weeby jeepies.  Have used and worked on many GM strokers in my day and love the engine but lets face it, they are dirty and noisy.  Not only that, but I have better use for my motor oil than to create an oil slick under my bus.  You would think that after close to 80 years, GM/DD could have come up with a set of gaskets and seals that actually kept the oil in the engine.

I am also comfortable with electronic control systems.  What the nerds have been able to do with our engines using these computers is nothing short of incredible.  Am still trying to wrap my head around the transmissions used in the industry but no doubt I'm sure, with your help, that the learning curve won't be too steep.

At this point, I'm leaning towards a 35 foot RTS though it will have to be a Nova as all the rest are not compliant here in Canada.  Having said that, I am open to any and all suggestions.  Really don't want a skoolie as they are too tightly sprung, their center of gravity is too high and most of them are the narrow spec.

I guess what I'm really interested in is the pros and cons of all of the offerings.  Not necessarily stuck on a transit but it seems for now that it make the most sense.  One area I am very confused about is the industry in general.  especially the transit bus designs keep getting traded from one company to the other.  Seems that different years of the same bus are made by someone else.  Even the venerable Fish Bowl was dropped by GM and given to MCI for the Canadian market and the RTS changed its manufacturing company more times than they changed their socks.  Now I found out that Prevost owns Nova and New Flyer took over Orion.  I could go on.  Almost an incestuous relationship.

I am sort of stuck with Nova, MCI, Prevost, New Flyer, Thomas, GM and I think Van Hool (will have to print out the RIV list to see if I have missed any) due to the Canadian registration requirements but maybe someone has done a work around for one of the other offerings.

The general condition is not that important as the project will be a complete restoration, starting with the mechanicals.  It would be nice to find one that I could drive home though.  Not really interested in taking out a second mortgage to have the bus towed to Ottawa.  My biggest roadblock is rust.  You can fix anything else with parts but rust never sleeps so the materials used is of prime concern.

Looking forward to any input you folks can give me.

Bill

[Bill B /bus]

Why not start your search in the used market already converted coaches.
I saw a nice MCI 5A last week in Kenai, AK. The owner had just purchased the bus a few months ago in Texas. Out of frame overhaul on an  8V71. Interior is somewhat  dated, but that is fixable. He said the price was reasonable.
I think there are a lot of coaches coming on the market due to aging of the converters.
We got hung up on the 35 foot rule for lots of campgrounds with the first coach, PD4108, But with the MCI 102A3 we have not been turned away due to length. "Sure I know just the space for you."

Thoughts for you to ponder.

Later,
Bill

[RJ]

Bill -

Welcome aboard!  Once you get bitten by the bus bug, you're done for.  The disease is incurable, but you can control it.

The Nova RTS is a great bus - for a transit.  You'll be very hard-pressed to find one with highway gearing in the rear axle, and about the only way you'll obtain a set is if somebody's got one sitting on a dusty shelf in the back of a long-forgotten warehouse.  Thus you'll be sitting on the governor with the 6V92TA screaming away turning 2100 rpm at a whopping 56 mph, plus getting a whole 4 mpg in the process.

Oh, and basement storage is non-existent on an RTS, unless you're good at fabricating waterproof boxes while upside down.  Then you'll have to figure out how to access these new boxes, because the company who made replacement panels for RTS folk creating bays no longer is in that business - now they just make cheap stuff for the Indiana stick 'n staple bean-counters.

35' x 102" are pretty rare, probably even more so on your side of the border.  Prevost made a few in the late '80s that were shells, which then went to conversions companies to be outfitted.  Don't know how difficult it would be to bring one of them "back home" - it seems RIV gets a little touchy with bus conversions.

MCI built the F3500 in the early 2000s, but I don't know if any were sold in Canada.  Here's a link to a photo of one:
http://www.ttmg.org/photos/tlogan/Hampton_MCI_88.jpg

Obviously, if you could manage with a 35' x 96" wide coach, that opens up a whole lot of other options.  My MC-5C falls into this category, and I find it's just perfect.  Would I like the extra width? Of course, but it's not a deal-breaker for me.

Saying that you don't want a highway model because Mama couldn't drive one is just an excuse, and a pretty lame one at that.  Look around you - how many women school bus drivers do you see?  How about driving Ottawa transit buses?  Once she climbs in that seat and puts some time in, you may have to pry her fingers off the steering wheel.

I have a few more thoughts on the subject, but droopy eyelids are preventing me from coherently looking at my monitor.  Thus I will leave you with these comments to ponder while you await others to chime in.

FWIW & HTH. . .

[chessie4905]

Unless you plan on using this conversion till you die, steer away from a transit. They are very difficult to sell later without a greater loss than with a conventional onewhen you change interests in your needs. The major lack of storage requires additional roadblocks in layout. If your needs for a usable conversion are minimal and price of initial purchase is critical, then go with it. Buying an already converted coach would be a better deal in the long run if you are patient, as the money will add up as you procure the components to convert it. You would have enough to keep you busy repairing, modifying, and correcting a converted one. My first conversion was a 1948 ACF Brill. It was what I could afford ( barely), was already converted, had bathroom, kitchen, sleeping area, couch, a passenger seat across from driver, no AC, no heat except when on the road, no generator, except for a 5 hp gas engine hooked to a car alternator to charge 4 car batteries, and got 5 miles to the gallon. It would run right with my father's 4104 out on the road though, so that helped. Looking back though, we had a vehicle that we could actually use right away and there were many areas on it to keep me occupied over the years.
  BTW, if you don't like the oil leaks on two cycle Detroit's, install a Walker Air-Sep to cure those ills.

[bevans6]

Since you are in Canada, take note of the RIV regulations.  First thing is that you essentially cannot import a converted bus, or in fact a bus not in totally stock configuration, into Canada unless it is quite old.   You might be able to import a factory converted bus if the converter was the manufacturer.   You can't import a bus unless you can get a notice of compliance with recalls, so the manufacturer has to be in business.  So you are well advised to look at buses already in Canada.  There is the MC-5 option as a 35 ft highway bus, but aside from a rare Prevost, that's it for 35 foot highway buses.  If you are looking at Canadian buses, obviously be aware of the rust issues.  So I would start by checking out Canadian buses first, you may well find something that is in good shape and suits you from OC Transpo, for example.  Then I would do that research you mention at https://www.riv.ca/ImportingAVehicle.aspx and see what you can import as a not-too-old stock seated bus.

Using a broker versed in importing vehicles can be a really good option.  My MC-5C was imported into Canada by a broker for resale, he knew exactly how to do the paperwork and have the conversion work performed (as far as I can tell that amounted to installing a speedometer that reads in KPH and a hub meter that reads in kilometers), and got the all important Canadian registration sticker for it.

Thoughts on a transit - the obvious issue is storage, but for more than camping stuff.  You need to find a place to store around two hundred gallons of water, half fresh and half waste.  A combined grey/black tank is a good solution and one that I used, but if the waste tank isn't under the level of the appliances that use it, you get really tough design issues to work through, with odd pumps and what-not.  The gear ratio has already been mentioned, you really want to be able to hit 70 mph if you need to.  Pay attention to the OTR air conditioning installation and condition - it's a great option to keep it if it works well, and removing the factory on-the-roof AC can be a huge structural task on some buses, with having to replace the outer roof skin.

[DoubleEagle]

So, it looks like you need to check out every existing already converted bus available in Canada. That will be fun!  The argument for considering a highway coach is very compelling, the issue of having storage space underneath is very important, and the gearing issue is also expensive to change.

[lostagain]

Why would you  consider a transit bus for continent wide travel? A transit was designed for city use. A highway coach is made for long distance highway driving. As you must know, they are hundreds and thousands of miles between attractions and destinations. It is nice to be going down the road at 65 mph revving 1800 or less, with the ability to step on it and go 70 (or 80). The bus has to be smooth, quiet and comfortable. For example for us out of Western Canada, it is a 24 hour drive to Arizona. Last winter, we drove along the Mexican border, the Gulf Coast, then Florida, taking our time and exploring Eastbound. On the way back, we shot straight back on I 10, pounding pavement 12 hours a day for 3 or 4 days. Then after visiting friends near Phoenix, it is another 3 days back home, in February. You appreciate a good coach for that kind of travelling. I cannot imagine doing that in a transit. That would be like a dump truck versus a highway tractor trailer.

35 foot is great. Really handy around town and tight spots, we love ours. But I have driven lots of bigger buses, and if a 35' fits, so will a 40'. And speaking of comfort and handling, a 40 footer handles noticeably better going down the road because of the tag axle, more stable.

Oh, and Detroits don't always leak. My 6V92TA doesn't.

So my advice, based on many years driving buses commercially and our own conversion, is look for the best, latest model highway coach you can afford. Already converted will get you travelling right away.

Welcome, and good luck with your search.

JC

[convert2diesel]

First of all, Thanks for the warm welcome.

Have read all the replies and you all make a compelling case for a highway bus.  Certainly is casting a shadow on my initial knee jerk decision to investigate transit busses.  Obviously that direction seems to be ill advised.

However, in my defense, I am faced with a somewhat draconian regulatory body up here called the Registrar for Imported Vehicles.  In order to protect our bus manufacturers a number of years ago, the RIV stipulated that the cut-over age for any imported bus is 1971.  In other words, anything made subsequent to 1971 must comply with certain standards as has been mentioned by a couple of the folks here.

That leaves me with the constraint that any bus I import must either be a true antique or it must be a totally unmolested  bus that is on the RIV's list.  That has the effect of removing all previously converted busses and means that I will have to look for a bus that is still being used as intended as a bus.  Suggest that the number of conversions done by the original manufacturer are few and far between.  Have not looked into re-registering a bus as an RV conversion but if past experience is any indicator, that should not be an issue.  Could give you a list of what I've done in the past but that would just be plain boring.

Many years ago, I made the decision not to buy any used vehicles north of the Mason Dixon Line.  I really hate rust and if your going to put the effort into making a vehicle road worthy, why start with a problem?  Getting a bus that has been used on the roads up here makes no sense at all.  They would all require a massive session of chemotherapy to rid them of the cancer and even then, it will come back.

Considering the above, that would mean that I am faced with buying a bus that has just been taken out of service through one of the myriad auction houses, or from a dealer in the States that no doubt got the bus from the same source.  Then I'm faced with getting the bus over the wall (assuming Mr. Trump ends up being your next president  ).

I guess one of the major motivators for considering a transit bus was continuity of ownership and maintenance records.  Transit busses are, for the most part, designed to be maintained quickly, easily and are kept on the road by well qualified maintenance shops.  Additionally part supply chains are pretty well established. 

From what I have seen so far, the same does not necessarily hold true for highway busses.  It seems that after a bus has served a major bus line, it is often handed down the line to a myriad of secondary operators who's maintenance departments may or may not be suspect.  As long as it passes the yearly inspection, they are good to go.  As I mentioned in my first post, this will be a total, bumper to bumper, overhaul so the general condition of the bus is not really a concern, however, it would be good to know that I'm starting out with a good foundation.

Once again, thanks for all of your input.  You all made valid points. That means I have a lot to think about.......but I really like the look of the RTS 

Bill

[brmax]

Bill, It may be a great choice finding one in the north. I agree and grin with the fact below the Mason Dixon their would be less rust issues, its pretty well understood not much snow and ice and having to use salt, beet juice and chloride surface treatments down there.

I heard that Mexico may have the same kind of rule in that an older vehicles cannot be transferred there and I believe the vehicle age is much less than you mentioned, as maybe 10.
With all that it may be more important finding out how or when the previous owners used the equipment/bus all year. Heck its always possible to find a factory private coach of old.

good day
Floyd

[lostagain]

Bill, you seem determined to overhaul the bus from bumper to bumper. So getting a seated coach to be converted will do. Plenty of good ones down South, and Western Canada. MCI make good, simple, easy to maintain buses, with good support continent wide. A 102D (40'), or DL (45') would make a great platform. Everything from the floor down is stainless steel. They commonly come with the Detroit S60 and Allison B500. Prevost cars are quite popular with some bus nuts, but rather complex and more difficult to maintain from what I hear and read. And don't assume a bus is rust free because it is from the South. It might have spent time up North, or vise versa. Inspect each one individually.

JC

[brmax]

 Have you considered some of the models without storage bays below.
I am always curious with some models having great clearance. At first with camping I had thoughts of clearance because we all know the hard surface are much more level generally.
Then the storage is a whole different ballgame to work through, I think some on the site here have nailed it down with some of these things.
Heck even in some / many campgrounds even on hard surfaces have small hills, curves compounded with hills can be very tough.
Sounds like ya have great intentions with 35' or addressing clearance, so I'm listening.

Good day there
Floyd

[Geoff]

I have a 40' RTS and I can tell you I  would not trade it for a Prevo, MCI or any other worn out bus.  If you can find 35' with no computer,  a good runner, you are way ahead of of all the B. S. You are being fed.

--Geoff

[brmax]

RJ that f3500 link looks to be the cats az, I think.
That's the first bus I have seen with a dude size door, must have a ft more than the 9 has.
Struck an interest though I'm busy enough with what I have, thanks for the link.

Floyd

[eagle19952]

I have a 40' RTS and I can tell you I  would not trade it for a Prevo, MCI or any other worn out bus.  If you can find 35' with no computer,  a good runner, you are way ahead of of all the B. S. You are being fed.

--Geoff

so...all hiway coaches are BS ?....care to elaborate ?

[DoubleEagle]

I have driven RTS's, and I think they are the most attractive looking transit that was ever built, but I would not consider them for conversion even if the price was very low. They simply do not have the storage space you need for tanks and gear, and I don't want to run at the governor down the Interstate. For those that like them, and can make do with what they are, that is your business and choice. It might be unkind to refer to people who advocate using highway coaches as being purveyors of anything other than helpful.