Stuck on a Hill

[Seangie]

We pulled into Durango the other day and was looking to park the bus back a few roads in the residential area and one road had a pretty steep climb maybe 200 feet over a quarter mile.  

None the less we went up it anyway with van in tow and the bus came to a halt. Had to drop the van and back down a hill.

Yesterday AM in Mesa Verde (7000') we were pulling out of one campground to move to another and there was a 100 yard run from where we were parked to a little 12' raise in the road to exit the park.  I just idled to the raise and the bus wouldnt climb over it.  I had to back up the 100 yards and take a good run at it leaving a cloud of black smoke in my wake.

Today we were in a flat spot but the exit was going uphill.  Pretty good grade.  Flat to get out of the spot but turning uphill the bus couldnt get going.  So I had to turn it around at a reverse angle to go out the qrong way but downhill... right way for me.  Taking out a water spicket and the signpost for the site out along the way.  (Quiet RJ.....I dont need an u lip from you  )  

Does this check out as normal?  Ive never had this problem before.  I think Ive climbed steeper hills and in 1st Ive always been able to get out.  Is it the thin air again?  Anything I should look at?

Thanks guys.  Headed north to moab and then Salt Lake today if anyones along that route would love to meet up.

-Sean

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

[buswarrior]

Does anyone remember the HP loss per 1000 feet of altitude? It is a significant number for an NA engine up at 7000 feet.

"Cloud of black smoke" suggests putting the "throttle not opening all the way" thoughts further down the trouble shooting list, but not off it.

If there is a lazy/dead cylinder, altitude magnifies the power loss.

Intake air path? Design weaknesses/compromises are exposed at altitude, pipe sizing, filter cfm capacity, obstructions to flow, cleanliness of filter media.

Stick or auto?

Extremes are the place to test your systems. Heat, cold, altitude, speed, slope...

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[eagle19952]

Does anyone remember the HP loss per 1000 feet of altitude? It is a significant number for an NA engine up at 7000 feet.

"Cloud of black smoke" suggests putting the "throttle not opening all the way" thoughts further down the trouble shooting list, but not off it.

If there is a lazy/dead cylinder, altitude magnifies the power loss.

Intake air path? Design weaknesses/compromises are exposed at altitude, pipe sizing, filter cfm capacity, obstructions to flow, cleanliness of filter media.

Stick or auto?

Extremes are the place to test your systems. Heat, cold, altitude, speed, slope...

happy coaching!
buswarrior

he is turbo 6v92
recently replaced Air element
i would learn to run a converter stall test.
and then find someone to assist me
do you have a tach ?
a hand held ?
you will need blocking and extremely adequate chocks/fully adjusted brakes...

[buswarrior]

oh dear... turbo needs some RPM to make pressure, from idle, suffers similar fate as the NA...

not fun at all.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[luvrbus]

Sean, you have to pick a battle you can win  the A/R controls the spin up on your turbo I bet yours is set up for high end torque and rpms.
You can change the turbo A/R for more torque on the low end but you are going to loose the high end torque a catch 22. @ 7000 ft you are under 280 hp if yours is a 350 hp or change to 475 hp 8v92 like Don Smith his S10 is mountain goat

[lostagain]

Sean, if you haven't been to Moab before, it is a great town, tourist friendly, and beautiful. We have been there many times with the bus and the dirt bikes. A great place to park overnight is on E 100 S, along the curb, on the North side of the Best Western. If you are driving North on Main street, turn right at the Best Western and you'll see a long stretch of side walk to park along. Never been bothered there. It is quiet, and right in the middle of down town for walking.

For propane, a dump and a fill of water, go to Farm & City Feed and RV Supply, a little bit South of down town on Main. Good, friendly place. IIRC, dump and fill is $5.

You should spend 2 or 3 days in Moab to see the sights.

Hope you can resolve your power issue. I was in Durango and the Colorado Rockies years ago with the Courier 96 with 4-71 before I turboed it, and sure the power was reduced and we were putting out black smoke, but it wasn't that bad. Sounds like you have a problem, aggravated by the altitude. Sorry I don't have ideas other than been mentioned so far.

Good luck.

JC

[eagle19952]

well i am having a very hard time believing that a Detroit will "run out of air" unless there is a mechanical problem... if the turbo is 100% at sea level...(and Sean's has been).... I fail to see, .. and have never seen 0% on a "hill"..   

possible, maybe. likely..not.

transmission fluid checked lately...

[luvrbus]

He needs a boost gauge he has a boost problem a lazy turbo,exhaust leak,to big of a hot housing on the turbo,not enough air intake and if he has a fuel modulator it won't work till the turbo boost come up all the black smoke points to not enough air,his engine should have 21 to 23 lbs of boost, you take the boost pressure away from a TA Detroit you have nothing but smoke JMO  

[Seangie]

He needs a boost gauge he has a boost problem a lazy turbo,exhaust leak,to big of a hot housing on the turbo,not enough air intake and if he has a fuel modulator it won't work till the turbo boost come up all the black smoke points to not enough air,his engine should have 21 to 23 lbs of boost, you take the boost pressure away from a TA Detroit you have nothing but smoke JMO  

Sean, you have to pick a battle you can win  the A/R controls the spin up on your turbo I bet yours is set up for high end torque and rpms.
You can change the turbo A/R for more torque on the low end but you are going to loose the high end torque a catch 22. @ 7000 ft you are under 280 hp if yours is a 350 hp or change to 475 hp 8v92 like Don Smith his S10 is mountain goat

Cliff -I think you are dead on with the turbo set for High End torque/Rpms as well as the exhaust leak. I just had the turbo rebuilt not to long ago.  Never had these issues before I came up to Santa Fe.  Ive got 9F80 injectors which puts me at about 320hp.  I think my biggest issue is the air filter which is a Wix 42588 which is only rated for 1000CFM.  I think I need about 1250 minimum for the larger injectors and the TV-7101 Turbo.  The part number on that turbo is 5103760.  Not sure if that tells you what the AR is set to.  When the shop rebuilt it they kept the same specs as the previous turboo.

I had an old school 2 stroke guy look at my bus last year in Spokane and he went through every square inch of it.  From just a visual inspection going through each cylinder and looking at the air box the only thing he mentioned that he could tell was wrong was that the engine had more soot than normal which pointed to air and/or exhaust.

Does anyone remember the HP loss per 1000 feet of altitude? It is a significant number for an NA engine up at 7000 feet.
"Cloud of black smoke" suggests putting the "throttle not opening all the way" thoughts further down the trouble shooting list, but not off it.
If there is a lazy/dead cylinder, altitude magnifies the power loss.
Intake air path? Design weaknesses/compromises are exposed at altitude, pipe sizing, filter cfm capacity, obstructions to flow, cleanliness of filter media.
Stick or auto?
Extremes are the place to test your systems. Heat, cold, altitude, speed, slope...
happy coaching!

BW - Throttle not opening all the way may be a little bit of the problems. I've got an air throttle and now that you mentioned it, both times in the park my air wasn't up to 100psi yet, I think around 75 is when I start moving out.  I wonder if the lack of air contributed to the throttle not opening all the way? Probably not because in Durango we had been driving for 2 hours and now that I think about it... I had an issue in Santa Fe where I was at a light going up hill and I had to stop at a light and make a left turn and it took about 30 seconds for me to cross three lanes of traffic.  Just slow start and real slow build to speed with lots of smoke.

Bus has -
6v92TA Mechanical Engine.
740 Allison 4 speed automatic
Recently Rebuilt (last Jan) TV7101 Turbo
9F80 injectors
FARR 42588 WIX - Tube Air Filter (Rated for 1000CFM)
It does have an exhaust leak that I tried to fix but I think loosening the pipes and tightening the clamp back on it only made it worse.

Im sure there are other small issues as well.  I think its cumulative now.  But dang if that muffler doesn't sound awesome

Sean, if you haven't been to Moab before, it is a great town, tourist friendly, and beautiful. We have been there many times with the bus and the dirt bikes. A great place to park overnight is on E 100 S, along the curb, on the North side of the Best Western. If you are driving North on Main street, turn right at the Best Western and you'll see a long stretch of side walk to park along. Never been bothered there. It is quiet, and right in the middle of down town for walking.

For propane, a dump and a fill of water, go to Farm & City Feed and RV Supply, a little bit South of down town on Main. Good, friendly place. IIRC, dump and fill is $5.

You should spend 2 or 3 days in Moab to see the sights.

Hope you can resolve your power issue. I was in Durango and the Colorado Rockies years ago with the Courier 96 with 4-71 before I turboed it, and sure the power was reduced and we were putting out black smoke, but it wasn't that bad. Sounds like you have a problem, aggravated by the altitude. Sorry I don't have ideas other than been mentioned so far.

Good luck.

JC

JC - We pulled into Moab about 2pm this afternoon, we were initially planning some hiking in Canyonlands or Arches It was 100 degrees when we rolled in.   We walked for about 4 blocks through downtown and landed in a frozen yogurt shop and the kids suggested hanging at the library instead.  So thats where I am typing this from now.  We are going to wait until later when the sun starts setting and push through to Salt Lake tonight and save This area for another time when its a little cooler.

We dropped the van and the bus did really good getting over here.  Stayed between 185-190 most of the way, a couple of climbs got up to 195.  Bus runs great besides the smoke trail.  Its not bad if I lightfoot it from the start and once its up to speed it mostly goes away. You can see a trace coming out of the exhaust.  When we get to Washington and get settled in I'll throw a bigger air filter on there and hopefully that will make a difference.  Probably wouldnt hurt to get the injectors looked at as well.

well i am having a very hard time believing that a Detroit will "run out of air" unless there is a mechanical problem... if the turbo is 100% at sea level...(and Sean's has been).... I fail to see, .. and have never seen 0% on a "hill"..   

possible, maybe. likely..not.

transmission fluid checked lately...

Don - I'm with you.  Ive been slow up some pretty steep hills, last one I remember was in Yakima WA and it was almost straight up but we got up it in first while towing the van.  Of course Yakima is at 1000' as well. Tranny fluid is good. No issues there.

-Sean

[Ed Hackenbruch]

Power loss is 2-3% for every 1000' of elevation for a N/A engine from what i remember reading somewhere a long time ago. Don't know if/or how much, the size of the injectors makes a difference in that loss figure.

[lostagain]

1000 cfm is definitely not enough intake air. Try to get at least 1300. That will make a big difference.

JC

[chessie4905]

What rear axle ratio do you have?

[RJ]

Taking out a water spigot and the signpost for the site out along the way.  (Quiet, RJ. . . I dont need any lip from you  )  

I'll wait until Angie chimes in!

[TomC]

9F80 injectors will put you closer to 300hp and 900lb/ft torque. I would suggest an increase in air cleaner and turbo, then increase to 9G90 injectors that will give you 340hp and 1020lb/ft torque.

[TomC]

You should also be getting 1600 - 1800rpm stall speed from the torque converter