New Understanding of bus heat

Tikvah · February 17, 2016, 10:59:21 AM

I have some history in heating systems so this should have been elementary. Maybe you guys already know all this, but maybe one person might be as forgetful as I am.

I'm one of the pioneers who heat and cool my bus almost exclusively with my 110V residential mini-split. I wouldn't trade it for the world. We love the quiet even heat and air, the fact that it uses so little amps, and the fact that it looks nice without any rooftops. We are well insulated with deep spray foam throughout, so the bus is usually easy to heat.

But, this winter we have occasionally been dealing with single digits. When we see those numbers we have to deal with some supplemental heat and a dehumidifier to control condensation. We have a ventless 10,000 btu gas heater that sits up front (see picture) that has always served us well. (If I ever do another conversion I'll include the gas ventless heater, it's a lifesaver when you have limited electric).

The thinking behind having the ventless gas up front is the fact that the front is always cold (in the winter). The windshields are cold, the door is cold, there is no insulation up front, etc. so the gas can heat the front and everything is good - right? Well, not exactly.

We have noticed in very cold weather that we have cool floors, and inconsistent heat throughout. Seems some areas are comfortable, move a couple feet and you'll find a cold spot, or hot spot. Well, that's life in a bus - right? It doesn't need to be.

This last week we had a significant cold front moving through the area that would cause near zero degrees every night and teens in the daytime. That was cause to make sure I had my ducks in a row. I went to Lowes and picked up an electric heater. It a nice small vertical unit that runs at 750 watts or 1500 watts, and it oscillates. On a fluke I sat it on the first step (see picture) facing away from the room. It oscillates from the driver area to the stairwell. The first evening we noticed something amazing. The room was comfortable, floor to ceiling. The mini-split was running as always, but the gas never came on. We no longer had cold/hot spots. The bus was consistent, comfortable, and warm.

I learned something I should have already known. The gas heat up front did a great job. The heat would rise straight up to the ceiling, get caught in the air stream of the mini-split, and disbursed through the bus, but the front would be cold and the floor would be cool. But with the oscillating heater facing forward, it was heating only the coldest part of the bus. The greatest source of cold was eliminated. Now the floor is comfortable, the front is warm, and the temperatures throughout are consistent. I can't believe the difference, with a relatively small amount of heat.

If I ever convert another bus, with the expectation of spending winters in cold climates, I will still do my beloved mini-split, but I think I would install a residential furnace in the basement, use the stock tunnel for heat and push 75% of the heat forward into the steps and driver area. Cold air returns would be easy to install in the toe- kick of the kitchen cabinets, bathroom wall or cabinet. I would also send some heat from under the big side windows to warm that cool area and minimize condensation.

Lesson learned. For now, on the cold nights I'll use my new electric heater, on the step, facing forward.

Dave

My wife will complain that I took a photo with all the mess

This pic of my mini-split above the windshield

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

buswarrior · February 17, 2016, 11:07:29 AM

good report! just tipped the balance to your favour!

happy coaching!
buswarrior

Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM · February 17, 2016, 11:48:56 AM

There is more than one way to skin a cat. I have an MC-9 with all of the windows still in it. The great thing about leaving all of the windows in is that they let in a lot of light. My bus is one of the brightest buses I have seen because of all of the windows and the light knotty pine wood in the inside. The downside of course is that at night time, they also let in a lot of dark, so the inside of my bus is darker than most other buses without as many windows on a really dark night.

The other thing a lot of windows does it to let in a lot of heat in the summer and cold in the winter. It is difficult to cool off my bus when it gets into the triple digits out here in CA. On the flip side, it is difficult to keep it warm on the cold winter days out here as well.

I had the fortunate experience to meet Doug and Mindy Ashwood from PEI Canada when I was at the Quartzsite rally. They too have most of their windows but to keep even warmer in the cold winter months in Canada, Mindy made her own curtains that have multiple layers of fabric, one an insulating layer, and one a blackout layer. She also made them so that they zip up in the middle of each window to seal them up even better to keep more cold out or heat in. Also with the layer of blackout material, it is darker than the inside of a black cow inside when they zip up all of their curtains making it easier to catch a nap during the day.

Heaters are great but cost money to run no matter what fuel you burn. However, well made curtains can cut your energy costs tremendously. Mindy offered to make curtains for my new Eagle and I took her up on it. They live in PEI about half of the time and travel in the U.S. in the winters. I have seen Mindy's work and it is great. She is a great seamstress. She can make curtains for your bus as well.

So if you want to manage your energy costs and make the inside of your bus more homey, you should contact Mindy and have her quote you some curtains. Her insulated curtains will not only pay for themselves over a period of time, but will also make your bus look very nice.

To see Mindy's work click on the bus they have for sale with the curtains she made in it. Their contact info is also in their classified ad.

https://www.busconversions.com/bcmclassifieds/classified.php?n=2684

Scott & Heather · February 17, 2016, 12:04:31 PM

I see people put up reflectix in their windows for the summer and for the winter and others that use curtains similar to what Gary is describing...I know I get grief for my small and few windows in our bus, but what's the point of all the windows if you are covering them in the summer and in the winter and at night...? I would just as soon not have as many.

But I'm pretty sure I was born hanging upside down from a tree and I like to eat bugs. But to each their own...Dave, we have wintered a lot as you know and we always keep a Pelonis cube heater pointed towards the stairs too. Almost creates a "heat curtain" that allows the rest of the coach to stay warm. Next bus is going to have a wall to separate drivers area from living space. Impossible to keep the heat and cool in with the single pane glass up front.

Tikvah · February 17, 2016, 12:19:53 PM

Scott, and Gary, I've been reluctant to cover my windows for any reason. We have roll up blinds up front to block excessive sun and horizontal blinds on the sides that I dislike. Even in the houses I built I never installed window coverings. I like to see outside and the natural light, even at night I enjoy seeing out.
Scott, I've thought of insulated drapes or a wall but it would take away the bus's best view - out the windshield.
But the point is, I can have my cake and eat it too. I can enjoy my windshield and side windows and keep the bus comfortable.
Having said all that, Scott, you might see some Michigan winters, that's a different story. My single digits become -20 or -30 ... That's curtain weather, or a wall. I don't expect many bus nuts to winter in Michigan.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Seangie · February 17, 2016, 12:24:41 PM

Our heating plan works great for us. I suggest Dave and Scott try this and see if it works for them.

When we start to see overnight temps dipping down to the 20s, we clean up the bus and put everything away.

Then we start the bus and drive south to warmer temperatures.

You guys should try this! And then we would get to see you more!

Happy Winter.....spring is on its way.

-Sean

PS. We had another cold winter day in San Antonio again. It didn't get above 70 today.

Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM · February 17, 2016, 12:33:15 PM

One of the advantages of leaving all of the windows in place, is that you can get away with parking in church or many other parking lots and sleeping there day or night with nobody bothering you. People just assume it is a tour bus and it is pretty hard to hide anything that could endanger people with all of the windows open, even if they are heavily tinted like most bus windows are so you are not as much of a threat as a bus with few windows. I have slept in many parking lots both with a bus without many windows and one with all windows. My experience is that you are woken up much less in a bus with all windows.

It also makes it easier to drive if you can see out all around you especially if you are pulling out of a driveway at a 45 degree angle when your mirrors are of little help.

Closing the curtains is optional. My windows are all wide open during the day if it is nice outside as it is 90% of the time. However I may close off a window if the sun is beating directly down on them at certain times of the day. Having curtains gives you options. However even with a few windows, is they are not double-pane, there is a significant amount of heat loss after the sun goes down in a cold climate or a lot of cool air generated if the inside of your bus gets a bit warm inside during a hot summer day in the south.

Scott & Heather · February 17, 2016, 04:37:09 PM

All good points Gary. Of course with your 360 omni camera system thingy, it's like your bus is made of glass!!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dave5Cs · February 17, 2016, 05:57:21 PM

We have all our windows and put in MCD black solar shades and rollup off white night shades. Both rollup out of site or solar ones down in the day for heat. You can see out but can't see in. We use a regular 35K BTU gas heater and 2 roof tops AC's . Cheap to run and not complicated to put in.
Dave5Cs

luvrbus · February 18, 2016, 01:01:05 AM

On the Eagle I mounted a flush 1500 w toe kick heater with a thermostat in the stair well it looked nice and did a good job keeping the front area warm

Ed Hackenbruch · February 18, 2016, 02:57:43 AM

When driving we have a cover that flips down to cover the stairwell. I have found that on cold nights if i put that down it blocks off a lot of cold air from coming into the rest of the bus.

Nick Badame Refrig/ACC · February 18, 2016, 04:52:49 AM

Hi Scott,

Same issue with my C3 up front. The dash area has no insulation at all and creates drafts.One of these days
I'm going to do something about it!

The rest of my coach stays pretty warm with my Proheat and 3 hot water fan coil units. I have kept my coach
at 60 degrees in the winter for 12 years now. I burn roughly 35 gallons of diesel a month in Jan/Feb every year.
Maybe 15 gallons a month in spring and fall. I might run a hot water loop in the front dash area to solve this..

Good Luck
Nick-

Lee Bradley · February 18, 2016, 05:54:38 AM

I just added another hot water heater to my system and ran two 3" ducts to the second step of the entry. Much more comfortable in the cab area.

Brett G · February 18, 2016, 09:25:31 AM

Quote from: Scott Bennett on February 17, 2016, 12:04:31 PM
I see people put up reflectix in their windows for the summer and for the winter and others that use curtains similar to what Gary is describing...I know I get grief for my small and few windows in our bus, but what's the point of all the windows if you are covering them in the summer and in the winter and at night...? I would just as soon not have as many. But I'm pretty sure I was born hanging upside down from a tree and I like to eat bugs. But to each their own...Dave, we have wintered a lot as you know and we always keep a Pelonis cube heater pointed towards the stairs too. Almost creates a "heat curtain" that allows the rest of the coach to stay warm. Next bus is going to have a wall to separate drivers area from living space. Impossible to keep the heat and cool in with the single pane glass up front.

We use the reflextix when it's hot and cold. Really works well. Inexpensive. https://goo.gl/photos/prELNf1Gded4ztnt6