(Not so much) Fun with freezing temps

[Dave5Cs]

Nope majority of the time it blows right out the purge valve and desicant is a dryer anyway. Inever had any problems with it until this week and that was 4000 miles ago. A trucker was the one who told us to do it and it worked well and very fast and we had an airdrier.
Dave

[brmax]

I was hesitant on the mention when I ask about air compressor inlet, if small air filter there or hose to big air filter. But I think unless someone put a dryer on it didn't have one from oem.
They kinda started in 70-71 with some new air brake regs. with these new fandangled systems they only optioned dryers mostly, and use the "sniffer" bottle as I was taught to call it.
So any way I would use a cap full in inlet hose slowly or better yet a close connector pushing at the outlet close by possibly.
It sometimes has to run through 40' of trailer to get that system moving, and it doesn't take much really. I think its great and kept it on my truck.

[luvrbus]

Bendix says use the alcohol after the air drier fwiw,if it's freezing up with a air dryer,then you need to check the heater and the voltage on the dryer they are supposed to come on automatically when the temps drop to freezing.
I never had a air line freeze before I kept my tanks clean and the dryer in good working order the coldest weather was around -25 in WY and Idaho in the 80's the wind chill was -45     

[eagle19952]

Nope majority of the time it blows right out the purge valve and desicant is a dryer anyway. Inever had any problems with it until this week and that was 4000 miles ago. A trucker was the one who told us to do it and it worked well and very fast and we had an airdrier.
Dave

Like Dave never hdad any ruinations from using it, we used HEET gas tank additive... and sold cases and cases of it too.

drillers bought the most, but in the arctic it was considered a must have for air systems of any kind.

[Geom]

Thanks all again,

Here's the latest update.

We tried to fire her up Sunday morning after temps have been holding above freezing for a while. On initial start attempt, I had my beloved use the ignition while I was back by the engine bay watching. I noticed that she had been cranking for an awfully long time. When I checked in with her by radio, she said she had already released the ignition key, but yet everything was still cranking. Oh crap! Another problem. So in another moment of impromptu analgrabnometrics I remembered that we have a master chassis switch that kills the battery negative terminal. I immediately got to that and it stopped the cranking.  

So I continued looking around to see if the starter relay was somehow shorted or wet or ... Nothing seemed out of the ordinary. I had her turn the ignition key on and off several times just in case something there was stuck and all was well there.
So I felt brave enough to turn the chassis switch back on. This time I could hear that whirring sound I mentioned in the first post. Thinking it was the starter I immediately turned off the switch and continued groping around trying to find a short, or exposed cable or anything. I turned the switch back on several more times, and all with the same result, whirring sound. Then on the last attempt it whirred, stopped, then spup up, whirred again, and stopped, one more whir, and then it stopped for good.  

After checking things again, we decided to try starting one more time. This time the instruction was to turn the key for a second and back off.  As soon as she turned the key, the starter was turning over the engine, and as soon as she let go, everything stopped (no whirring). Repeat, same result. Repeat again, same. Repeat, cranking a bit longer, same. So we decided to go ahead and complete starting up.

With a bit of hesitation and some smoking, and a burst of zero-start she came to life. But was running pretty rough. We've had it run rough before when it's cold out, initially, so we just left it alone to warm up. Eventually she went through 2 stages of "better". Less smoky, at first, but still anemic and then much less smoky and the usual purr we've always expected. It took probably 5 minutes to get to that point. It's probably good to note that during these rough areas the throttle (in the engine bay not the foot pedal) was unresponsive. Moving the throttle body changed nothing on the idle speed. We'd also had that happen before too, and until she reaches that last stage of "better" the throttle is not responsive. Once she's better, however, moving the throttle lever works fine and she purrs beautifully as usual.

After we were sure the engine was running, I began trying to compress air. So I closed the master purge valve by the muffler and was checking inside for pressure build up. Sure enough, as soon as I closed the valve she could see pressure building inside. Yay, finally something is going right! We watched the pressure gauge like a hawk to make sure the governor was working correctly and not over-pressurizing. In the meantime I went to dump the air tanks. The wet tank was redicilously full of water   (So clearly what I was doing wasn't enough). The dry tank had only a tiny amount of water. The tank in the tool area had very little misty water, and the emergency tank in back had none. By this time the bags were filling nicely and the compressor had been cycling on and off perfectly within 120psi.
We conducted the most through air/brake test we could or ever have. While she was inside, I was outside listening to each dd3 and brake chamber engage and disengage as normal. We tested the emergency brake on and off several times, and then retested the brakes. All seemed normal.

Feeling a bit more optimistic, we proceeded to test the power steering. I'd been watching the reservoir to make sure it wasn't spewing anything this time. And it hadn't.
So now we tried to move the wheel. First she tried to turn right and it was crazy difficult, like there was no PS. So I had her turn left, and poof, it worked like a charm. Then I had her center the wheels, still good. Now turn back right, and this time everything was fine  
So we tried the PS several more times and it continued to work normally and actually sounded better than it had in a while. It still squealed, just not as loudly.

Feeling more daring now, we decided "screw it" if we're going to go now is as good a time as any. So we prepped the inside for travel in a red-hot-hurry and got on the road. Before hitting the main roads I once again checked the brakes and watched the pressure while moving to make sure nothing had changed. Every thing seemed to work perfectly except when I tried to turn right to take the onramp, the power steering conked out and felt like I was rotating a boulder. Having driven non PS vehicles before it was a bit unexpected but not too shocking. So I continued the turn since I was comitted to it anyway by this point, just with a bit more gusto . A little throttle to climb the onramp and the PS was back.

I drove it like a nervous hen, hawkishly watching every gauge and monitor and listening for any odd sounds. We drove a couple of hundred miles this way and everything was great. She'd been running perfectly well. We decided not to push it and stopped someplace in IL for the week, rather than push to Nashville and get there at night with dubious weather and road conditions on top of possible engine and PS issues.

So, that in excruciating detail, is the latest. And that's where we're at for now. We'll stay here for a week and then try again on Saturday to make it a few hours further.

This time I completely purged all the tanks and left the valves open. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to do that. But I plan on keeping them open for a day of so, then close them this afternoon or maybe tomorrow.

But now I'm even more confused.
What the heck was the sticking starter all about?
What was that whirring sound? I began thinking that it might be the fuel pump and not the starter after all. Is that possible?
Not sure what the deal was with the PS while I was trying to get on the onramp. Since then, though, it's been working great.
The air thing, I think, is self evident. Clearly my air/water purging procedure needs more work From now on, I'm going to just completely dump the tanks. Leaving them full of some air was a holdout from when we used a compressor to keep the bags full, while parked.

If/when we make it to the mechanic I definitely plan on having an air dryer installed and if they're still available, that alcohol injector add-on.
The PS will likely need some work. I suspect the valve responsible for controlling booster cylinder movement/direction is sticking.
Clearly there's also some electrical issue with the starting system. Not sure if freezing cold + humidity caused that. But it's of some note that once we got to our destination, and shutdown, everything worked perfectly normal. She shutdown as usual and there was no spurious sound.

Anyway, thanks all for the advice. A lot of it has helped me at least figure out which end is up and what I should be focusing on looking for.
I'm hoping with the warmer weather next week, it'll be less of an... Adventure.


George

[azdieselman]

The sticking starter could have been from low voltage.

Be careful with the battery disconnect switch under a load., It can cause a voltage spike and possibly damage some electronics. (I know you were in a panic at the time).

Drain your air tanks in the morning after the air pressure has come down. The fluids will collect near the drain and be quickly expelled. If you have a drain valve that can be left open, That's another option. Leave them open when you first start the engine, and the low pressure will blow out the tank without atomizing the fluids.

Many styles of air driers are available, I wouldn't recommend anything newer than an AD-9. The new driers are REALLY sensitive to air leaks and will likely cause problems on an older vehicle.

[brmax]

I hope better memories of Missouri in your future.
If you decide on some system accessories, just one of the choices is the best and do recommend the actual dryer instead of the alcohol sniffer bottle.
And agree the Bendix ad-9.
Something I found handy and like is a quick drain or pull style, with them having the key ring on it I can use a broom handle with a 1/4 bolt through the end at a ninety, so reaching under with that handle makes a quick drain routine better. The same stick or handle works great on reaching dump truck tarp tie downs that are way up there.

Have a great week
Floyd

[luvrbus]

I have always used the Bendix DV-2 on my tanks I never had a problem with those.They were standard on a Eagle Bus some heated some not,they would release the moisture every time there was a drop in pressure of 5 pounds I recall.They worked good for me as I didn't always remember to pull the cable on all 5 tanks 

[Geom]

I'm pretty sure that an AD9 is likely the best option. For buying it, I'm seeing rebuilt Bendix units and new "Bendix style" units. Any advice there? Should I get a rebuilt actual branded one or one of these "Bendix style" ones that are new?

There was an optional "moisture ejection valve" that was sold an an option on these coaches (which we don't have). I doubt, however, that those were heated and are likely old relics
So I love the idea of the DV-2. I've added that to my shopping list.

A block heater is also on the list as well. I assume a block heater, is a block heater, is a block heater?

I still need to know WTH caused the electrical snafus, but that'll be for another warmer day, and a voltmeter.
Interesting point about low voltage possibly causing that. The battery seems strong and usually has no problem cranking that engine multiple times. Although on that day, it did seem to struggle a bit more. We were still able to get 3 or 4 more cranks on it though, before it fired up.
I've been looking at the manual trying to piece the electrical system together in my head.
I wonder if humidity could've shorted something in that electrical panel by the driver?
With that leaky-assed "toll" window right above it (that's been the bane of my existence when it rains) and the humidity condensing up front, is that possible?
I've put some plastic sheeting on the outside of that window to keep water out, but controlling humidity is a tougher nut to crack. I already have a bucket of damp-rid sitting on the floor in the driver's area.

While I don't plan on spending a hullva lot of time in the Midwest in the dead of winter, alas it will be unavoidable and I want to treat this bus/engine as best as I can 

[azdieselman]

I would lean toward a Genuine Bendix.

Check and see what the core charges are. It may be better to pick one up in a heavy truck salvage yard to use as a core.

Since it may not be easily accessed, I would resist the temptation to rebuild the salvage yard one. Plus, by the time you buy all the repair kits and a cartridge, The difference won't be that great.

[bevans6]

FWIW I just checked the schematic on the air dryer heater for my MC-5c and it is powered up when the main OTR heater fan is turned on.  So if you aren't using the ORT heater the air dryer heater won't work.  I use the OTR heater in my bus, but if I didn't I would have to re-wire the power source for the air dryer heater.  Just thought I would mention this little quirk.

I have had a solenoid stick on a starter motor.  The solenoid does two things, one is kick the pinion out to engage the flywheel and the other is power up the motor itself.  This one stuck in such a way that the pinion was not out, but the motor was still turning.  I never took it apart to see what happened, since I had a spare starter on board.

Brian

[Oonrahnjay]

... I have had a solenoid stick on a starter motor.  The solenoid does two things, one is kick the pinion out to engage the flywheel and the other is power up the motor itself.  This one stuck in such a way that the pinion was not out, but the motor was still turning.  ...

      Brian, would the lube on the solenoid pinion be thicker/stickier in very cold weather, making this more likely to happen? 

[Geom]

      Brian, would the lube on the solenoid pinion be thicker/stickier in very cold weather, making this more likely to happen? 

^ Great question. I was thinking the same thing. I think this might be related to our previous starter starting issue during the summer, if so. I was beginning to think that starter problem might be related to the lube sticking and restricting the pinion from kicking out (on start). The reason I think that is how we "fix" it when it happens, is to lightly tap on the starter nose housing (usually once) and it kicks right out and starts. I've never had to tap further back onto the solenoid itself.
So if the lube in that reservoir is suspect as is in warmer weather, it might explain this behavior in cold weather.

Brian, so if I understood the above correctly if the pinion is stuck out, it could keep the circuit for the motor still engaged and trying to turn? So does the solenoid actually pull the pinion back electrically or is it supposed to "spring" back when there is no rotation?

Also, great point about how/when to activate the dryer heat (and probably for the DV-2).
I'll have to come up with a way to activate that that would only be used in the winter.
We don't use the OTR heater. I'm pretty sure it's InOp. The floor was lowered on this coach many years ago and I don't think the coolant lines were replumbed. I haven't tried to open the valves in the engine bay, fearing I'd make a huge mess but in looking at the rear bay, it looks like there are cut lines that would've gone to the heater core up front.
In any case, I may just wire it to a switch in the cockpit. I have a couple of spare switch slots up there.

[brmax]

Excellent tip Brian, big thumbs up.
Possibly some means to still use the circuit wires if it is only used by the otr heat. Maybe use the ign to just turn a smaller relay on as the big one and or solenoid was removed probably. I might want to use it in the on mode more often though, like in wiper operations.
Sometimes them starters and their in housing, and case grounds are a pain.

good day
Floyd

[bevans6]

Here is what I think happened inside the starter solenoid, emphasis on "think" as in WAG because I didn't take it apart to see what happened.  The solenoid does two things.  One is it is a big pusher to push the pinion out, against the pressure of a big spring that pulls it back in.  The other thing is it pushes a copper disc against two big electrical terminals to complete the high current circuit to turn the starter motor on.  What I think happened is the solenoid was energized, the pinion pushed out, the copper disc made the circuit and the engine started, then the solenoid was de-energized, the pinion was pulled back in to disengage but the copper disc stuck to the terminals, basically welded itself or there were worn pits that stuck mechanically.  Hence the situation I had with the starter motor spinning merrily but the pinion not engaged and the engine was running.  I still had the fuel pressure cut-off working then, so the solenoid could not have gotten turned on by mistake.  It ran for around 2 hours like that and finally started to make the voltage meter bounce a bit, which is what I went back to check out (I had just finished replacing an alternator pulley that fell off, so I was totally paranoid about voltage fluctuations).  I shut the engine off with the rear switch, the starter motor was eating itself alive, I shut it off with the master disconnect and "repaired" it roadside by hitting it with a big hammer.  I had a spare so I got it changed that afternoon, but it worked fine for the two or three starts that I did in the interim.

Edit: there is no lube to speak of inside the solenoid, just a smear of grease, so cold temps would not be an issue.  The copper disc sticking is known to be caused by age, pitting, starting with low battery voltage, cranking for long periods, and just plain wearing out after 30 years of starting that big engine.  You can take the solenoid apart (on the engine with my bus and starter, probably not on a GM), get that disc out and rotate it so a new section of fresh copper is hitting the terminals, but that ain't a fix, it's a "get home and buy a new starter" bandaid.  IMHO, anyway.

Brian