Using never-seize on lug nuts

[muddog16]

Expert witnesses, there are plenty of those, the question is just how much of an expert can you afford? Lawyers have mothers too........................don't they? What ever happen to Perry Mason? I actually liked him! Being quilty or cupable have no bearing on a case, it's all in how you twist those tiny little words! Ethics...........lol.....now there's a funny word!  Integrity, is another one. I'm old enough to remember what those were!   It's so simple, "Even a Caveman can do it"!         

[kyle4501]

I'm amazed that anyone would think that "the engineers are most comfortable with these wheel threads riding around in a stuck or frozen condition." That is plain dumb! Do you really think someone looking at the whole picture would ignore that? If you would READ & pay attention, the engineers NEVER said that! What has been said is to find the proper way to address the corrosion issues without compromising the bolted connection. IE: without cutting strings. The un-controlled use of lubricants in this joint can cause catastrophic failure. That is why those that understand all that is going on in this joint are so concerned with the use of lubricants.

I'll bet there are corrosion preventers out there, but no one sells them because no one is buying them. Things are sold based on demand, not need (who NEEDS french fries, whoppers, super size, twinkies, Thump-thump stereos, neon lights under car, old buses  etc).

Some said they used an impact gun to put on the nuts, I don't! I may use a small one to run them up but NEVER to tighten them. The reason is that even tho I was using torque sticks (& was doing it as the included instructions recommended), I was sometimes getting damage to the studs & nuts. since I have stopped using the impact gun, I haven't damaged any more studs or nuts. Impact guns are for production where current shop time is more important than future replacement cost of a few studs/ nuts.

Have you ever used an impact gun on a coil spring compressor? You WILL blow the threads out of it, BTDT when I loaned out MY coil spring compressor to someone who was trigger happy  .

Do it your way, at least you have been exposed to the right way, wether you believe it or not .

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think. 

BTW, I have pointed out that there are several different types of anti seize. I'm sure some of them have similar initial lubricating qualities of 30wt. I would imagine if, by dumb luck (have YOU ever compared them), you were using one of those, you would be fine.

Another thing, those advocating using anti seize, where & how much are you using it, threads, tapered seat, hub pilot, flange? AND do you properly recheck the nut torque as recommended?

Inquiring minds & all.

BTW, do you know what is happening when you torque the lugs? You are stretching the stud to get the required clamping force to retain the wheel. Excessive force will over stress & deform the components which reduces their effectiveness. Since no one wants to buy the tools necessary to measure this stud stretch, the engineers had to come up with something else - applied torque to the threaded fastener. The problem with this method is that there are so many variables that affect the resultant stud stretch for a given torque. Extensive testing has shown dry torque is the most repeatable.

Something else that has been proven here, people don't follow instructions given by the producer they paid to design & manufacture something for them. So the engineers also have to try to anticipate the results of those 'field experts' & still provide an abuse tolerant product.

After being abused by sales & marketing, 'field expert' abuse is a cake walk! 

[Barn Owl]

Ok, I have been thinking about this disconnect the two camps seem to be having and I am not really sure I understand why, but I will give it a shot. I think the problem arises as some of us are talking about a very specific thing (anit-sieze on lug nuts) and others are talking in generalities. If we go with the general route, then I will admit that I don't always follow procedures. Engineers don't have it right 100% of the time or there would never be any improvements or we would never have any failures etc. I can give an example that I know of. A mechanic shared this with me: There is a sensor located on the top of a transmission on the bell-housing. The service manual says to access it you must remove everything on the top of the engine, even the manifold. It required several hours to do the job. Someone figured out that if you removed the drive shaft, undid the rear transmission and motor mounts, and drop the transmission six inches (enough to get your hand up there) you could access that sensor from the backside. Now it only took 30min to complete the job. So which way was better? No contest there. But, specifically talking about anti-sieze on the lug nuts I will accept the industry standards and use the 30wt oil. If I am mounting correctly, inspecting regularly, and doing the maintenance that I expect to do, I don't feel that I will have a need for a product like never-sieze in that application. Give me some feedback. Am I way off on this one?

[Stan]

Barnowl: Did you read the two links I posted re lawyers and engineers. The lawyers viewpoint, with ample evidence to back him up, is that the stud mount wheel is a design defect and Firestone (now Accuride) should be held liable for all wheel failures. I guess that is the go after the deep pockets theory.

The Ontario Professional Engineers Association did extensive research on wheel failures and really makes it scary to use stud mount wheels. For example, in one of their tests, they found that wheels properly torqued in the shop, lost torque when taken out in cold weather. Even on hub mount wheels, there is no easy way to check the studs for nitrogen/hydrogen embrittelment.

The criteria to hold torque is to put the fastener in tension but not to exceed the elastic limit of the material. I think we all fortunate that most fasteners are used well within their elastic limits and will withstand a lot of abuse. If this were not the case, wheel separation would be a common thing.

I see some shops now make extensive use of torque wrenches when working on vehicles, but the majority of engines, transmissions and drivelines were installed, by mechanics, by guess and were usually tighter than the recommended torque (unless the bolts were difficult to access).

As Kyle points out, no amount of education, training or licensing can overcome the fact that some people will be lazy, stupid or both.  After a long list of unsatisfactory work done by certified people in tire shops and garages, I decided that I would do my own maintenance whenever possible.

[Barn Owl]

Stan, I agree with you. I read the articles last night and they were a real eye opener. One of my shortfalls is not being able to communicate as well as I would like. I haven't jumped ship.

[Dallas]

OK, How about if I muddy the waters a little?

Anti-seize, aka: Never-seize is not strictly a lubricant. That is a misnomer.

Only the carrier is a lubricant, whether that is petroleum based, water based, or some other base.

Anti-seize is actually doing the ame job as the anode rod in your waterheater.

The metals in the compound are sacrificial in order to keep the stud and the nut from rusting together or rusting away.

Depending on the type of metals you are using, there are different compounds containing different metals. Anything from aluminum, copper, zinc, iron, tin, etc., on up to silver and gold.

They are also built for different temperature extremes. Anything from -40° C or F (It's the same), to over 2500° F

With all the differences in compounds, how much research would be required to evaluate each one, and who would pay for it?
Just my pair of Dinars

Dallas

[Dave Harmer]

My opinion on this is that I would defer to the commercial driving manual in the area of pre trip inspections, which if everyone were to actually do them in completeness, would likely alleviate a large percentage of accidents.  It has been said here in the posts that you should check your vehicle at every rest stop.  That is also good advice although not a legal requirment in British Columbia.  I have used never seize for many years on many different applications including wheel studs, (sparingly).  Torqued to spec and then rechecked later at apprx 100 km and yes even again at another not to distant date.  For information to some that may not know.  Part of a pretrip is an actual visual and hands on inspection of wheel nuts.  When doing the visual, I am looking for rust stains from around the nut(first possible sign of problems)  Looking for obvious signs like missing lug nuts, etc.  If needed, pull out the wheel wrench and leverage multiplyer and physically check for wheel nut tightness.  While inspecting in pretrip, you are also looking for and physically checking tire status and oils, etc leaking.  Checking for cuts, inflation, cupping, etc, the more adept we become at this, the safer we all will be.  Pretrip inspection sheets are likely available at your local DMV.  Anyway this one has been beat up, and yet they are all good opinions and information.  Remember stay safe to stay alive, and there are no dumb questions.. ;
Dave, PD4104 in finally sunny Victoria.

[gus]

NJT5573,

I can't disagree with a thing you said. You have the actual experience (Something missing in too many posts) and you have experimented and thought this thing through. Too bad there isn't more use of your kind of system. A little bit of common sense goes a long way in making life more enjoyable.

The last thing we need is a bunch of poorly written rules blindly followed by mentally lazy people.

Barn Owl,

I've been a pilot for 50 years, now have an Aeronca 7AC for fun flying. Most light planes don't require W&B computations every flight. Once it has been done you know very closely what it will be for each flight. Not so with the big boys, theirs are very critical. You also quickly learn your normal fuel consumption so there is no need to do all the math for every flight. Experience and thinking!

[Happycampersrus]

Gus,

You put anti-seize on lugs because it makes them easier to remove? Right?

So when you have part high time on an aircraft, why not use fishing line because its easier to remove than .032 safety wire.

Or susbstitute coarse thread fasteners for fine thread, because they unscrew faster? Might work just as good. (experiment)

If you got a brand new Whirlwind Prop for fathers day (BTW there nice),  I would bet my bus that you would follow the manufacturers installation instructions or the MIM's for your aircraft. Or at least I hope you don't fly around me. 

Do you guess at any torque values on your aircraft?? That's what you are doing by playing with the lubrication of the wheel fasteners on your bus.

I run a maintenance garage for a large sawmill and logging outfit. Do a search for Turman sawmills, Turman hardwood flooring, Turman group, and Turman log homes. Between all the trucks and equipment we have well over 1k pieces in various locations and we do heavy equipment repair for some smaller companies.

I have over 35 years experience in vehicle maintenance, I'm licensed to saftey inspect in Virginia, and at one time I was a licensed Airframes & Powerplants mechanic. I have been a CDI and a QAR on real aircraft.

I have the experience and the proper training to work on just about anything, so does that give me the knowledge or right to experiment with something that can get someone hurt or killed?

In my company you wouldn't have a job after you got caught using never-seize or substituting (your own way)maintenance practices on anything we service or repair. We don't want the LIABILITY when something comes loose. We have to be on our game and trust me our guys are top notch or they don't make it long.

[Barn Owl]

Gus,

I love the Aronica! I loved flying the tail-draggers! I never flew an Aronica but always wished I could. I know they are better than the cubs, and back when I was dreaming about owning a plane, they seemed more affordable. I flew out of New London Airport; I don't know if you ever heard of Rucker Tibbs, he seems to be somewhat of a legend around these parts with the flying community. All of his students had to first solo in the J4 before moving on to a plane with radios. One of these days I would love to meet and see your plane and your bus. Just talking about it gives me the fever.

Laryn

[Ross]

So when you have part high time on an aircraft, why not use fishing line because its easier to remove than .032 safety wire.

Probably because the aviation industry doesn't widely use fishing line in place of safety wire.  Nice stretch though.   That's what you seem to choose to ignore.  A large portion of the industry DOES and will continue to use never-sieze on lug nuts.  Whether it's right or wrong, it's been done for many, many years...and I've yet to see an incident where never-sieze was named as the cause.  The cause is almost always improper torque.  You can try to connect the two by saying that never-sieze caused the improper torque, but you know as well as I do that most shops don't use torque wrenches and that this is the real cuprit.

If you're really worried about being on the road beside a vehicle using never-sieze, you better launch this crusade against the industry.  If you're rolling beside a truck with plates originating from a northern state, there's a good chance there is never-sieze on the lugs.

Ross

[Happycampersrus]

"Probably because the aviation industry doesn't widely use fishing line in place of safety wire.  Nice stretch though."

Not a stretch at all. People are substituting their own ideas for proven maintenance practices by trying to out think the manufacturers widely used or not.


"If you're really worried about being on the road beside a vehicle using never-sieze, you better launch this crusade against the industry.  If you're rolling beside a truck with plates originating from a northern state, there's a good chance there is never-sieze on the lugs."

Does make me wonder what kinda other stuff folks have rigged up.

The crusade is already launched. If you will do a search of and count the million responses of lawyers just waiting to fry you and finding an UNAPPROVED maintenance practice is just going to add to their case.

If you do another search and read were companies with poor maintenance practices have already been fried.

Do another search and read were the NTSB has cited poor wheel maintenance practices for causing accidents.

"That's what you seem to choose to ignore.  A large portion of the industry DOES and will continue to use never-sieze on lug nuts."

I'm not ignoring anything here. Those that choose to make up their own ideas about maintenance, make my job that much harder. Just because alot of folks do it doesn't make it a good practice.


"The cause is almost always improper torque."

Right!

What you and others in the trucking industry are choosing to ignore is that after you use an UNAPPROVED lube, There is no way you can acheive a proper torque spec! so why use a torque wrench anyway.

[Dave Harmer]

Yeah yeah yeah yadda yadda, come on don't beat up on the pilots Happy, lol .  One thing i forgot to mention in my post yesterday was that allot of the so called "experts" or trained or certified technicians do not actually use a torque wrench when putting lugs on cars, trucks, coaches, and yes maybe even planes, lol.  Seems they forgot that part of the learning curve.  So my advice is if I take my coach in for repairs and i see some trained monkey or "expert" as they are referred to in the posts banging away with a 3/4" or 1" or bigger air gun to tighten my lugs, I might tend to use some expletives, but most definitely not going back to that shop and nor would i recommend them.  Again, as for the use of never seize.  Maybe mythbusters should do a series or a show on it.  Because it is a lubricant as water is, I think i am hearing the possibility or inference that you should not change a wheel in the rain or when the studs or lugs are wet, because water could potentially cause improper torque to be applied to the stud, lol.  Come on guys relax and ligthen up.  I think we all know that if and when the lawyers get involved, two things are gonna happen, someones gonna lose a house and a car, oh sorry wrong situation, but i think you get the idea.  I have taken business law which covers of tort and liability and a few other scenarios.  I have acquaintance who is a lawyer.  One of the industry (law) sayings is that all lawyers are shysters, the only difference between the good and the bad ones, is the good one is working for you!!!!
As usual though i find these posts and others a good source of debate and informative.  My own opinion is that I will still use the never seize sparingly on the studs/lugs of all my vehicles as I have always done with not one ever coming lose to date.  This is probably due to pre trip type of checks as previously posted.   A pre trip is far from just checking tires, its about over all driveability and safety of any moving vehicle.  I know pilots do them or are at least supposed to do them, as I once carried a private pilots license.  And as noted previously, these pre trip inspection sheets should or could be available from everones DMV or even online.  If you have never done one, or seen one, it will likely be an eye opener and very informative.  They cover off quite a bit and just think of it as potentially saving you money.  A friend just got back from Tuscon for the winter, and mentioned that he had a blow out on his toad coming through portland.  I did not ask him if he did a pre check on the toad prior to starting or noticed if the tire was low.  Result for him.  Needs new rim and tire and bodywork to right rear quarter panel of toad.  So again, do pre trips work and potentially save money.  I can't really say, but i have never had  wheel come off or a break down yet due to any of the related symptoms, so maybe if i stop them, that might change. 
Cheers and remember stay safe to stay alive.
PD4104 Dave out

[jjrbus]

  I did a search on anti/never  seize type products. Did you  know there was one for nuclear applications? After a lengthly search I have learned which one to use where. Actually I will probobly forget it in a day or two, but I know where to look it up again.
  None of the products that I checked show lugnuts as a suggested application.
I may not use it again but I'm still not going to take off the wheels and remove it.
Kyle suggested that there may be a anti/never seize product with the same propertys as 30 wt oil, but I can not find it.

[NEO/Russ]

Great threads vs. many that are helpful but don't contain much technical data.  I thought I'd jump in with my experience regarding loosing wheels. 

I used to be VP of Engineering for a large company that also manufactured boats.  We also produced our own trailers.  The trailers that lost wheels were mainly aluminum rims, only 14" diameter and five bolts and we used to experience a few times when nearly new trailers would loose a wheel.  After the trailler was used for a while it didn't happen.  Having very deep pockets to afford to fix safety problems and protect the company assets we had Professional Engineers, metallurgists and "experts" inspect, measure, dissect and evaluate our lugs, nuts, rims and hubs as to why.  We instituted several manufacturing processes to be absolutely certain that the lug nuts were torqued, inspected and re-torqued.  We also had decals that instructed owners to re-torque at certain miles.  With all the experts we never got a reason as to why and finally went back to steel rims that seemed to lessen the problem.

In spite of everything, that parent company went bankrupt (nothing to do with lost rims) and I was without a job for a few months.  The vendor that sold us tires and the rims hired me to do further work on this problem so they could sell product to others with no problems.  I tested, torqued, measured, changed parts and other things for weeks.  Finally I began to find patterns that emerged when you have a big enough pile of product.  My finding was that when the trailer (without wheels on) was going through the paint shop that excess paint was being applied to the hubs.  That paint crushed from the torque of the wheel and flexing while underway and the lugs loosened.  That was in 2000.  About three years later the DOT figured out the same thing and has had training and bulletins for trailer builders to not apply paint to hubs.  It doesn't seem to bother new automotive vehicles because they ED paint and it is thin, but this was urethane and sprayed heavily to resist corrosion.

While this doesn't relate to using never seize, I think it shows that there is a lot going on that isn't obvious.  I also found from talking to many wheel and hub manufacturers a consensus not to lube or use never seize, but they didn't give a good reason why.  The failure in this case was due to the crush of a few mils of paint.  I never have used never seize, but I have used spray oil films in areas that salt the highways.  Now I will use just 30 wt., thanks to all the discussions here.