Using never-seize on lug nuts

[Happycampersrus]

Kyle, Ma man.

I was just thinking about coming to get your input on this.   

"The use of 30 weight oil has been tested so that the results are known & predictable. The various anti-seize compounds have different additives in them which affect their lubricity. That makes publishing torque values for them impossible."

AAH HAA!!

Thank you for that explaination as I knew what I wanted to say, I just didn't know how to put it so well.

[Stan]

"30 weight oil" is a real generic term and applies to many kinds of oil that have different lubricating qualities. Is just any kind of "30 weight oil" OK?

[kyle4501]

The different anti-seize compounds I have seen/ used had differing ingredients ranging from aluminum, graphite, molybdenum disulfide, copper, nickel, teflon, etc.

Yes, different 30 wt oils may varry in their lubricating properties (I'm guessing most of the real differences are in the detergent packages). But I'm sure they won't vary enough to be significant like the differences in antiseize components.

They don't call molybdenum disulfide an extreme pressure lubricant for nothing!

[gus]

"I have first-hand knowledge of this also. That is exactly what is going to happen at a trial when Anti-seize is found on the wheel."

This proves nothing, he is saying it is going to happen?? This is not first-hand knowledge? Lawyers may be good but they aren't this good. I can bash lawyers too because my dad, father-in-law and son were/are lawyers.

I'm still looking forward to even one documented case of a wheel coming off because of anti-sieze.

Manufacturers are probably afraid to say that it can be used because some dope will use a whole handful on the theory is some is good a whole bunch is really good.

That bit about using 30wt oil was probably written in the '30s  or '40s when there was only one kind of 30wt!!  Today there are probably 50 different formulations of 30wt.

[Happycampersrus]

I have first-hand knowledge of this also. That is exactly what is going to happen at a trial when Anti-seize is found on the wheel.

"This proves nothing, he is saying it is going to happen?? This is not first-hand knowledge? Lawyers may be good but they aren't this good. I can bash lawyers too because my dad, father-in-law and son were/are lawyers."

Gus, Have you ever been a witness in a wrongful death lawsuit?? I have and it was not a pretty sight!

I have seen first hand were a fellow thought he knew it all.

To make a very long story short a fellow just like everyone else that thought he knew more than the engineers. One day he decided that he would repair his air brake system on his large tandem axle dump truck.

Naw, heck I'm smarter than anybody that designs air brake parts or any engineer that recommends a certain type DOT approved hose, so I'm gonna pop into lowes hardware and get me some tubing and fittings. After his repairs, he goes and gets a load of gravel. After coming out of the quarry, he heads to the job site and goes down a long grade to a stop light, but the light is red and he steps on the brakes. POP goes an air line and before the spring brakes slow him down he plows a minivan resulting in a death of a child and injury of the mother.

Fast forward abit to the civil trail and he was convicted because of poor maintenace practices (ring a bell?). NOT just because of the plastic water pipe for air brakes, but any thing they could find from lights that didn't work to worn steering parts.

He lost 2.5 million for his stunts. He is working odd jobs for cash, because he can't own or earn a damn thing until he pays the family.

It takes very little to loose everything you own and if you don't think a good lawyer will roast you over loosing a wheel, you are mistaken.

I've seen this. the lawyers are going to ask you just as they asked the guy with the dumptruck:
(1)do you perform your own maintenance?  (to put the blame on you)
(2)were did you get the idea to use anit-seize? (to put the blame on you)
(3) is that in ANY maintenance manual for installing wheels? (to help prove you were negligent)

A civil trial is a court of opinion, not so much on facts. If they believe you did the wrong thing during your maintenance procedures you will lose your case. Good luck.

"That bit about using 30wt oil was probably written in the '30s  or '40s when there was only one kind of 30wt!!  Today there are probably 50 different formulations of 30wt."

The manual that recommends this is from Febuary 2004

[kyle4501]

The lawsuit issue over using anti seize is a distraction from the facts.

The fact is that the manufacturer says dry or 30 weight oil only. (I'm no lubrication engineer, but I suggest the differences in 30 wt oil are relatively minor & involve how they age/ break down in certain environments.)

If you have ever properly designed a bolted joint like this, you know how much is going on & why there is such a high safety factor margin. Abusing that margin thru mis-information or ignorance is not the safest way down the road. The reason you won't find many reports citing anti-seize as the cause is because it will have been just one contributor in a chain of events. Has anyone else noticed the required mounting flange diameter spec in Alcoa's instructions? Do you suppose this is more nonsense from idiot engineers dated to the 30's?

If 3 strings should hold up a weight & there are 30 strings attached to it (some strings may have hidden damage & some weren't tied properly), how many strings can you safely cut?

If your lunch is under the weight?
If your hand is under it?
If your baby is under it?
If your life depends it?

If you ignore the manufacturers specs by using anti seize, how many strings are you cutting?
(Just because you don't know all that is going on doesn't make the potential for failure go away, even if it is percieved as a small potential.)

[Ross]

Is everyone really afraid of getting sued?  You guys should just hire out all maintenance and hire a professional driver because if you are in an accident and someone dies, it doesn't matter what they find...or don't find on your wheels, they will find something and try to make a case out of it.  If you do your own maintenance, that's probably all they will need.  Can you prove that the last time you had the wheels off they were installed to the proper torque with a calibrated torque wrench?  You guys that use torque wrenches...how many of you have any calibration papers at all, never mind anything recent? 

Really guys...If getting sued is such a concern, maybe doing something as "risky" as bussin' isn't for you.

Ross

[Happycampersrus]

"Is everyone really afraid of getting sued?"

Nope. My maintenance is done by an ASE certified heavy equipment mechanic that goes by the recommended maintenance practices listed in the service manuals.

"Can you prove that the last time you had the wheels off they were installed to the proper torque with a calibrated torque wrench?"

Yes.

I'm done here. Some believe it's ok to substitute their ideas for proper maintenance practices set in place by manufacturers that have spent millions on design, research & development, and extensive testing, so who am I to disagree.

[Stan]

For anyone interested in how lawyers and engineers look at the problem of losing wheels, here are a couple of web sites:

http://www.mcmathlaw.com/tread-separation.htm

http://www.peo.on.ca/publications/reports.html 

On the second site go down to the link  on Wheel Separations on Tractor Trailers

In any legal suit, there will be a parade of expert witnesses with completely opposite opinions and the jury will likely be people with no technical knowledge at all. I read on another board the comment that you will be tried by people not smart enough to get out of jury duty. Even the judges are not infallible and have different opinions which creates work for all the lawyers and judges in appeal courts.

[Barn Owl]

For every one thing I do right, there are probably one thousand I do wrong. So I would probably be roasted by the system if anything bad happens. Now, should that stop me from doing the right thing? What happened to doing what's right for rights sake? "I'm screwed anyway so why bother" is following a logic that I don't get. I agree with Kyle's analogy, and with Happycampersrus, until proven otherwise, why not do what we know is right by following the industry standards. We should lead by example, for the sake of our lives, the lives of others, and for the benefit of our hobby. Is it really worth it to do otherwise?

[jjrbus]

I'm done here. Some believe it's ok to substitute their ideas for proper maintenance practices set in place by manufacturers that have spent millions on design, research & development, and extensive testing, so who am I to disagree.
   One thing I have learned here is to question everything!! I started out by going by DA book. Now I question DA book. And I would like to give a lubrication example. DA book for my MCI5C calls for SAE 30 oil for the front wheel bearings. A poster asked what wieght oil to use in wheel bearings? The responses were everthing from SAE 5 to grease. Front wheel bearings are an important part of the system.
ClarkeEcholes as a writter of tech manuals. Stated that the engineers who wrote the manuals would spec whatever was commonly available! So much for extensive research. Actually my bus uses SAE 40, it seems like that should be the called for lube, if useing commonly available materials.
So if I use SAE 40 instead of SAE 30 and cause an accident becuse of a front wheel bearing failure. I'm liable! I am not following the service manual.

I use anti sieze on my wheels, I'm not going to pull the wheels and remove it. I  may not use it again. But I'm not changeing the oil in the wheel bearings.
 

[kyle4501]

.  .  .  .ClarkeEcholes as a writter of tech manuals. Stated that the engineers who wrote the manuals would spec whatever was commonly available! .  .  .  . 

Just because a commonly available item is spec'd, doesn't mean they didn't research it. AND, just because it is in Da' book doesn't mean it was researched either.

So, when the question is answered with reasonable thought vs "I done it this way fer years & aint kilt no one that anybody noticed", you should think for your self & decide which opinions are rubbish & which are best for your needs.

I've worked with some amazingly lazy engineers, and I've also worked with some idiots with a Professional Engineer's license too. But for the most part, the engineers I've worked with are smarter than they get credit for & do excellent work.

Stan gave a link to an article that explained a little better about how a budd wheel connection can fail when the nuts are screwed on too tight, be it from a wrench monkey with a 2000 ft lb impact gun or from the use of improper lubrication. The article's editorial slant was a bit biased towards hub piloted wheels & made it sound as tho the budd wheels should be outlawed, but the description of how the lug nut's taper affects the stresses in the rim was pretty good at clueing in the un-informed.

[gus]

I'm going with jjrbus here.

I think what he is saying is to use your own brain, do some thinking, do some research and don't get all balled up in reading too many long-winded tech articles written by experts.

The world is composed of leaders and the led. The led don't bother to think so they follow rules written by others--who may or may not know what they are doing!

[Barn Owl]

Gus,

I believe you are a pilot right? I once was, until I had children and I didn't have the time or financial resources to stay current. (My first solo was a 1939 J-4 Cub, Wow! It was fun!). Do you follow that same logic when you calculate your weights and balances? I bet you go by the book. Cowboy pilots don't live long. BTW, I am an engineer; we don't just sit around and make this stuff up. What am I missing?

[NJT 5573]

It sounds like the engineers are most comfortable with these wheel threads riding around in a stuck or frozen condition. When I do tires at nite I see sparks fly if I run them down dry. The threads are being destroyed pretty fast. Its not a big deal to grab a new inner or outer (as they show wear) and mix used with new each time the wheel is off and back on. It is a big deal to grab a new stud and throw it in every time you need one. I know my operation is rare in that I have 10 real good studs on all my trucks. I keep the lug threads like new by continually using lube for assembly. I can get 20 or more wheel switches out of a set of studs using lube before they have to be replaced. Replacing studs properly is another issue, (they are press fit). If I put in 10 new studs with my bad boy IR and don't use lube, there is a 50-50 chance I will damage one of the new studs the first time I run them down. If I continue this practice dry, by the time I have done 6 wheel switches at least 4 of the 10 studs will have thread damage and at least 1 will be dummyed using an over the counter tool sold at tire service stores just for this purpose. This is not the me you want to share the road with, and the studs and hardware will just continue to go downhill. What the engineer hasn't told us is how often to change the studs if we do it his way. Possibly every time? I can't torque a head bolt dry for the obvious reasons, (it ain't good enough). I can't keep wheel hardware in service without lube, unless I spend alot of time in the shop and a ton of money that doesn't need to be spent. I don't use much never-seize but it seems like it says on the can one of its uses is truck lug nuts. Anyone want to take a shot at left and rights? Should we reverse them if our bus motor turns left?