Hello! New 4106 owner. Have shifting trouble (spicer 4-speed)

[andyps]

Hello everyone! Brand new here and a new to the world of buses. My wife and I just bought a 1964 GM 4106. Here we all are:






Bus was converted in '92 and also had a rebuild of the engine and transmission at the time. Everything works great on the bus (for the most part!). Got a great deal on it and we're excited to start our adventures.

The bus starts right up and I can easily start it off in 1st (and also reverse), but getting all other gears is a headache. I have tried to follow R.J. Long's guide (http://www.busnut.com/artrjl2.html) to the letter, but I am still struggling.

We're in Texas. We bought the bus in Houston and I drove it to Austin (where we live), but the only way I was able to shift was by short-shifting (shifting into higher gears much too early) and lugging the engine a little bit (i accelerated even slower to lower amount of stress on engine). It will go into every gear and each gear feels good to accelerate.

When I drove it from Houston, I didn't know much about the Spicer 4-speed and so I did just about everything wrong. Now that I've had time to dig in and read a lot about it, I tried driving again, but still failed pretty miserably.

When I follow the instructions (and even try variations), I can get it going in first, but cannot for the life of me get it into 2nd at speed. All I get is grinding and more grinding. Not sure what else is helpful info here. Would love advice. Also if anyone who is an expert spicer 4-speed driver, is near to Austin, and would be willing to come help me out, I would very much appreciate. Lunch/Dinner/Beers/Whatever on me.

Anyways, still excited about our new bus, just frustrated at the moment. Thanks for all the incredible knowledge and resources on this board that I've been gobbling up like crazy this past month.

[eddieboy]

Welcome to the asylum.  Before I got my 4106 I watched a lot of videos on double clutching.  Here is one of my favorites.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI3t3NQj7q4
Ed

[lou432]

Welcome aboard ya`ll !!! Nice looking ride !! I`ve got a 66 MCI with a 4 speed spicer and I`ve drove  her all of 200 miles with no trouble at all up shifting but my down shifting/double clutching needs serious help !! And had`nt seen the article you posted the link to , so my thanks to you !!
I will get my chance to practice down shifting soon when I bring her up to NH from Fla .
  Good luck and Welcome! 

[OneLapper]

Welcome!

Double clutching is a lost art.  There aren't many people that even know what it is, let along that can actually do it.  Watch the videos, practice, etc.

You can PM me (or RJ, I probably shouldn't speak on his behalf, but he is one of the nicest guys you'd want to meet) and either one of us would be happy to talk you through it.  It might be easier to learn how to double clutch if you understand WHY you need to double clutch.  

Good luck!

[pennuja]

I had similar issues when I started, the one thing that helped me was between pressing and releasing the clutch the second time I rev the engine a little (a quick press and release as I shift) it works every time. I followed RJ's guide and ended up with a lot of grinding, I don't think he mentioned the quick rev but I could have missed it.

Good luck, it was very frustrating at first, but after driving it for a while it gets much more enjoyable.

Jim

[rgrauto]

These trans have no synchronizers to speed up or slow down the next gear so you have have a light touch and feel the gears mesh. Too fast a gear change or too slow will grind gears. The accelerator is as important as the clutch to get the engine the correct speed to get the gears turning the same speed. For an example as is downshifting from third to second. It goes like this,third to neutral,clutch out,speed engine up about five hundred rpm''s,clutch in shift to second,if it grinds clutch out in neutral ,speed up engine,clutch in shift to second. It's all about timing,if you get the gears spinning the same speed you don't even need a clutch. I know this sounds crazy but this is how we all learned,patience is your best bet with this trans. If you need to, pm me a phone # and I'll walk you through it.

[daddyoften]

I find it much easier on a non sync tranny to not use a clutch at all except from a dead stop. Once I'm rolling I just feather the shifter and throttle and learn the sweet spots. You will get a feel for the gears. Once you find it you will know it. Down shifting is quite a bit harder but there are sweet spots there as well. Double clutching is a lost art but can help quite a bit to learn as well. A lot of times over rev the engine between shifts and as the rpm's fall apply a soft touch to the shifter into the gear you are wanting but not enough to grind. If done right you will feel everything line up and it will fall into gear. HTH
Eric

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[HB of CJ]

You will get the hang of it.  It is not that hard to do.  My 12 year old grand daughter does just fine.  10 yard dump truck.  Consider taking the shifting portion of a heavy truck driving course.  In fact, the entire straight truck version would be a great idea.  The education would go into areas you want to understand and excel at.  Heavy.  35 feet long.  Air brakes.  Slow.  Crash box tranny.

Stopping distance. Do not feel put off.  After just a couple hours, you will be running up and down the gears 1 through 4 and back down again to first, all double clutching without making a noise or nicking a dog clutch.  In fact you will be so proud of your new "trucker" skills, you and she will want to bring along friends just to impress them.  Broom .... broom .... brooom.  HB of CJ (old coot) 

But then again, you may have a shift pipe or rod problem or no lube or some thing physically wrong with the shift linkage.  My Crown Supercoach had lots of grease zerts on the shifter rod.  Ten Speed Roadranger RTO910.  Horrible to shift at first ... even I could not do it.  Five minutes with a hand held grease gun fixed everything right up.  Snick snick snick.  Like shifting a dirt bike.  Be sure to have fun.

[RJ]

Andy -

Welcome aboard, and congratulations on your purchase of the original "Sports Car of Buses!"  Once you figure out the shifting, you'll grin every time you get behind the wheel.   

Here's another YT video about shifting, this one is with Fred Rayman behind the wheel of the iconic Scenicruiser.  Same basic gearbox, same basic ratios, just in a T-drive configuration.  Nice thing about watching Fred is that you can really hear the engine, so you get a better overall visual/audio of the technique, compared to the one of Alan Fong posted by Ed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlH3OrXcOdM

IBME that the vast majority of newbies to the GM stick shift try to rush the up shifts, and don't shift fast enough downshifting.  It really is a timing issue, something that really takes a lot of practice.  It also takes a bit to get used to the "feel" of the power train talking to you through the linkage.

If you can master the DTS (Dead Throttle Start - where you SLOWLY come thru through the clutch's take-up point w/o your foot on the throttle), you can master the gearbox.  Like my article says, it just takes practice.

OTOH. . . I happen to have a nephew who lives in Austin that I haven't seen for awhile. . .   

FWIW & HTH. . .



PS:  What's the VIN on your new toy?  PD4106-XXXX?

[andyps]

Welcome to the asylum.  Before I got my 4106 I watched a lot of videos on double clutching.  Here is one of my favorites.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI3t3NQj7q4
Ed

Thanks for the vid!

Welcome aboard ya`ll !!! Nice looking ride !! I`ve got a 66 MCI with a 4 speed spicer and I`ve drove  her all of 200 miles with no trouble at all up shifting but my down shifting/double clutching needs serious help !! And had`nt seen the article you posted the link to , so my thanks to you !!
I will get my chance to practice down shifting soon when I bring her up to NH from Fla .
  Good luck and Welcome! 

You bet. Had a hard time finding the article (people kept mentioning it in posts) because most of the links were dead, but finally found it. Thanks for the welcome!

Welcome!

Double clutching is a lost art.  There aren't many people that even know what it is, let along that can actually do it.  Watch the videos, practice, etc.

You can PM me (or RJ, I probably shouldn't speak on his behalf, but he is one of the nicest guys you'd want to meet) and either one of us would be happy to talk you through it.  It might be easier to learn how to double clutch if you understand WHY you need to double clutch.  

Good luck!

Thanks! I'm going to try some more with of these tips in the thread. If that doesn't work out you'll be seeing a PM

I've driven manual cars my whole life and on two of them (poor synchros) I had to double clutch. Im used to the action of double-clutching, but this big bus is a lot different Time for more practice.

[andyps]

I had similar issues when I started, the one thing that helped me was between pressing and releasing the clutch the second time I rev the engine a little (a quick press and release as I shift) it works every time. I followed RJ's guide and ended up with a lot of grinding, I don't think he mentioned the quick rev but I could have missed it.

Good luck, it was very frustrating at first, but after driving it for a while it gets much more enjoyable.

Jim

Thanks for the tip!

These trans have no synchronizers to speed up or slow down the next gear so you have have a light touch and feel the gears mesh. Too fast a gear change or too slow will grind gears. The accelerator is as important as the clutch to get the engine the correct speed to get the gears turning the same speed. For an example as is downshifting from third to second. It goes like this,third to neutral,clutch out,speed engine up about five hundred rpm''s,clutch in shift to second,if it grinds clutch out in neutral ,speed up engine,clutch in shift to second. It's all about timing,if you get the gears spinning the same speed you don't even need a clutch. I know this sounds crazy but this is how we all learned,patience is your best bet with this trans. If you need to, pm me a phone # and I'll walk you through it.

Thanks for the advice! I don't have a tach, so knowing my exact rpms is tough. For the upshifts, when I put in the clutch, bring it out of gear, let out the clutch, I'm still giving it a fair amount of throttle too? Before I put clutch back in and grab next gear?

I find it much easier on a non sync tranny to not use a clutch at all except from a dead stop. Once I'm rolling I just feather the shifter and throttle and learn the sweet spots. You will get a feel for the gears. Once you find it you will know it. Down shifting is quite a bit harder but there are sweet spots there as well. Double clutching is a lost art but can help quite a bit to learn as well. A lot of times over rev the engine between shifts and as the rpm's fall apply a soft touch to the shifter into the gear you are wanting but not enough to grind. If done right you will feel everything line up and it will fall into gear. HTH
Eric

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

Thanks for the tips. I keep reading that you can shift without the clutch, but Im having a hard time wrapping my mind around that!

You will get the hang of it.  It is not that hard to do.  My 12 year old grand daughter does just fine.  10 yard dump truck.  Consider taking the shifting portion of a heavy truck driving course.  In fact, the entire straight truck version would be a great idea.  The education would go into areas you want to understand and excel at.  Heavy.  35 feet long.  Air brakes.  Slow.  Crash box tranny.

Stopping distance. Do not feel put off.  After just a couple hours, you will be running up and down the gears 1 through 4 and back down again to first, all double clutching without making a noise or nicking a dog clutch.  In fact you will be so proud of your new "trucker" skills, you and she will want to bring along friends just to impress them.  Broom .... broom .... brooom.  HB of CJ (old coot) 

But then again, you may have a shift pipe or rod problem or no lube or some thing physically wrong with the shift linkage.  My Crown Supercoach had lots of grease zerts on the shifter rod.  Ten Speed Roadranger RTO910.  Horrible to shift at first ... even I could not do it.  Five minutes with a hand held grease gun fixed everything right up.  Snick snick snick.  Like shifting a dirt bike.  Be sure to have fun.

Thanks for the advice. Hopefully I don't have any mechanical issues, or if I do something easy like needing lubrication. I need to learn my way around the mechanics of the bus so I can spot this stuff.

[andyps]

Andy -

Welcome aboard, and congratulations on your purchase of the original "Sports Car of Buses!"  Once you figure out the shifting, you'll grin every time you get behind the wheel.   

Here's another YT video about shifting, this one is with Fred Rayman behind the wheel of the iconic Scenicruiser.  Same basic gearbox, same basic ratios, just in a T-drive configuration.  Nice thing about watching Fred is that you can really hear the engine, so you get a better overall visual/audio of the technique, compared to the one of Alan Fong posted by Ed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlH3OrXcOdM

IBME that the vast majority of newbies to the GM stick shift try to rush the up shifts, and don't shift fast enough downshifting.  It really is a timing issue, something that really takes a lot of practice.  It also takes a bit to get used to the "feel" of the power train talking to you through the linkage.

If you can master the DTS (Dead Throttle Start - where you SLOWLY come thru through the clutch's take-up point w/o your foot on the throttle), you can master the gearbox.  Like my article says, it just takes practice.

OTOH. . . I happen to have a nephew who lives in Austin that I haven't seen for awhile. . .   

FWIW & HTH. . .



PS:  What's the VIN on your new toy?  PD4106-XXXX?

Thanks for the welcome and advice! We're pretty excited about our sports car bus The VIN is PD4106-2522. Do you have a way to look it up? I've had no success.

Thanks for the vid, that one looks helpful too.

I've tried slowing my timing and speeding up my timing for the upshifts. I'm starting to think a big problem of mine is not using the throttle properly during my shifts. Still not 100% on what Im doing with my right foot during the shift operation.

DTS I've got down. All my years of manual transmission driving prepped me for that one. That's easy... everything else though, not so easy!

Let me know if you visit your nephew

[RJ]

The VIN is PD4106-2522. Do you have a way to look it up?

PD4106-2522 was delivered new in May of 1964 as fleet number 37 to Denver-Boulder Bus Co, HQ'd in Boulder, CO.  Probably stayed in their fleet 10 - 15 years before being sold off to somebody else.

I'm starting to think a big problem of mine is not using the throttle properly during my shifts. Still not 100% on what I'm doing with my right foot during the shift operation.

On up shifts, are you coming completely off the throttle?  When up shifting properly, you shouldn't have to "blip" the throttle at all.  Obviously you have to do so on down shifts. . .

Are you winding the engine all the way to the governor on each up shift?  Coach performs best when you do, and it won't hurt the engine.

Try this:  Take the coach out to a traffic-free area where you can practice.  Put into first, get coach rolling, wind it to the governor w/ your hand on the shift lever and feel for when the tension in the powertrain changes as you hit the governor.  Come off the throttle and then do it again.  Repeat this just in 1st gear several times until you really can feel that tension change in the palm of your hand.

Once you've got that down, now try putting a little tension on the shift lever, like you're going to pull it out of gear.  Not a hard pull, just tension.  Get the coach rolling, and add this tension as the coach approaches the governor.  If you have the right tension, when the engine hits the governor and stabilizes, it should come right out of gear.  Stop and practice again several times until you really get the feel of it.  (Hold throttle steady while you do this, at least until you can pull it out of gear, then release.)

Now try going from 1st to 2nd, using this tension tip to pull it out of 1st.  As soon as it comes out, immediately put in the clutch and hold the shift lever against 2nd until it drops in, LISTENING carefully to the engine pitch, but NOT releasing the clutch.  Stop, put the coach back into 1st and repeat as often as necessary until you get the timing down.  Be sure to take your foot OFF the throttle as soon as it pops out of 1st!  At no time practicing this part of the tip should you let the clutch out in 2nd.  This is only to get you to begin to understand the timing and feel of the 1-2 shift.

Try that and see if that helps, then report back.

FWIW & HTH. . .

[andyps]

PD4106-2522 was delivered new in May of 1964 as fleet number 37 to Denver-Boulder Bus Co, HQ'd in Boulder, CO.  Probably stayed in their fleet 10 - 15 years before being sold off to somebody else.

That's great, thanks for the info!

On up shifts, are you coming completely off the throttle?  When up shifting properly, you shouldn't have to "blip" the throttle at all.  Obviously you have to do so on down shifts. . .

Are you winding the engine all the way to the governor on each up shift?  Coach performs best when you do, and it won't hurt the engine.

Try this:  Take the coach out to a traffic-free area where you can practice.  Put into first, get coach rolling, wind it to the governor w/ your hand on the shift lever and feel for when the tension in the powertrain changes as you hit the governor.  Come off the throttle and then do it again.  Repeat this just in 1st gear several times until you really can feel that tension change in the palm of your hand.

Once you've got that down, now try putting a little tension on the shift lever, like you're going to pull it out of gear.  Not a hard pull, just tension.  Get the coach rolling, and add this tension as the coach approaches the governor.  If you have the right tension, when the engine hits the governor and stabilizes, it should come right out of gear.  Stop and practice again several times until you really get the feel of it.  (Hold throttle steady while you do this, at least until you can pull it out of gear, then release.)

Now try going from 1st to 2nd, using this tension tip to pull it out of 1st.  As soon as it comes out, immediately put in the clutch and hold the shift lever against 2nd until it drops in, LISTENING carefully to the engine pitch, but NOT releasing the clutch.  Stop, put the coach back into 1st and repeat as often as necessary until you get the timing down.  Be sure to take your foot OFF the throttle as soon as it pops out of 1st!  At no time practicing this part of the tip should you let the clutch out in 2nd.  This is only to get you to begin to understand the timing and feel of the 1-2 shift.

Try that and see if that helps, then report back.

FWIW & HTH. . .

On up shifts I was coming off the throttle completely, so I guess I was doing that part right. Yes I was winding all the way up to the governor (about 15mph) and as I gently pulled the stick back towards 2nd I'd feel the engine hit the governor.

I'll try to take it out tomorrow or this weekend and try what you are suggesting and see how that goes. Just so I have this straight, the change into second should just happen naturally as the bus slows (with the clutch in after pulling out of first)?

I think another bit of trouble I've been having is just feeling like I have enough time. Last time I tried to find an empty stretch of road, I'd still have cars coming up behind, so I wasn't really calm trying this out. I'll try to find a better stretch and try a time when there will be less people out. I think a little less pressure to get it right will do me some good.

Thanks RJ!

[andyps]

Also, how heavy is the clutch pedal supposed to be on these buses? After my drive from Houston to Austin, my left leg had quite the workout!