MC-9 LP Gas Piping Installation

[luvrbus]

I always just use the 2 stage regulators myself at the tank

[BlueScarecrow]

One regulator get it at an RV store and generally will be set to run most stuff in there. Then get yourself an auto shutoff that if you get a leak at the tank it will close the line down. I have a switch for mine at the dash. Also in some states you will need to leave the bay door unlocked and marked with the letters LPG in contrasting paint or stick-ons for the FD if needed so they can find it fast. I also put a shut off at every appliance in case I had to shut it down for repair but still needed to use the others.


Dave5Cs

Thanks for writing Dave!

I have a 2 stage Suburban Furnace... 25,000 and 42,000 btu's. At the end of the gas line will be an outdoor grill at 60,000 btu's; this plus all of the other appliances. I just want to make sure that I had enough btu's and that the piping would carry the load.

The 60 gal LPG tank is located where the condenser used to be. It was like trying to get a fat lady into a girdle, but I got it in and it fits fine.

I want to be able to dry camp for at least a couple of weeks.

Once past the gas stuff, my next step is 4 AGM batteries, a Xantrex Inverter and LED Lighting. I've taken out the heater core and the evaporator and that left a nice little compartment for the batteries.


Mike

[gumpy]

I have a 2 stage Suburban Furnace... 25,000 and 42,000 btu's. At the end of the gas line will be an outdoor grill at 60,000 btu's; this plus all of the other appliances. I just want to make sure that I had enough btu's and that the piping would carry the load.

The 60 gal LPG tank is located where the condenser used to be. It was like trying to get a fat lady into a girdle, but I got it in and it fits fine.

I want to be able to dry camp for at least a couple of weeks.

But, is this reality?  Is it likely that you will be dry camping and needing to run the heater at either 25K or 42K BTUs and be grilling outside at 60K BTUs at the same time? 

So you got your big LP tank tucked in, but is there a place where you can get your bus into and who will fill it for you?  It's getting more difficult (not impossible) to find
distributors who will fill permanently mounted tanks, and sometimes, getting a 40' bus in where they can reach it is not easy (again, not impossible). Also, when boondocking, it's
much easier to pull a single 40# tank, put it in the toad and take it to be filled without having to break camp and drive the bus over to the distributor. But each individual decides
what works best for their purposes and needs.

[luvrbus]

I guess it all depends on where you live most of travels nowadays are from AZ to Tx.Ok and Idaho and propane is on every corner.

Me personally I like the frame mounted tanks I think they are safer and you can mount one out of sight or hide it any place and use a remote mount fill and bleeder and that can go any place on the bus.

You cannot see the tank on the wife's Trek you just open a small 6x6 door and fill it lol hope Tom doesn't see this post I just gave him a frame mounted tank and convinced him tanks are better than bottles,I have yet to ever encounter a place that would not fill a mounted tank not saying there are not some places I just never come across one yet 

Fwiw I just filled the tank on her Trek 28 gals @$1.97 cost me 55.20 no sales tax here on Propane from the Indians my dealer is cheaper by a few cents a gal  but he charges sale tax of 8 %   

[Jim Eh.]

According to the RVIA website:
"Over fill protection devices (OPD) are required on all installed propane containers."
I believe that is applicable to each "fixed" tank.

[BlueScarecrow]

But, is this reality?  Is it likely that you will be dry camping and needing to run the heater at either 25K or 42K BTUs and be grilling outside at 60K BTUs at the same time? 

So you got your big LP tank tucked in, but is there a place where you can get your bus into and who will fill it for you?  It's getting more difficult (not impossible) to find
distributors who will fill permanently mounted tanks, and sometimes, getting a 40' bus in where they can reach it is not easy (again, not impossible). Also, when boondocking, it's
much easier to pull a single 40# tank, put it in the toad and take it to be filled without having to break camp and drive the bus over to the distributor. But each individual decides
what works best for their purposes and needs.

With a 60 gallon tank, I don't think I'll be breaking camp prematurely. Most of the places here in Phoenix have plenty of room for my bus... Arco... Bill's Propane etc. The tank is from 1972. The minor surface rust was removed and it was powder coated and looks like brand new. Thunderbird has certified it so I'm good to go for another 20 years.

[BlueScarecrow]

I think I would rather have a mounted tank than bottles. Hey son did you tighten that set of bottles down real tight? Yeah Dad! Maybe his hands aren't as strong as Dad's. The bottle breaks loose, damage is done to the feed line and now you've got a propane tank on its side spurting out liquid propane.

Nope... don't think so.

I also looked into that Pro-Flex (CSST). There was a family that had Pro-Flex installed in their home. Lightning struck through the roof, put a hole in the Pro-Flex and ignited the gas. The house burned to the ground. Visit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtN-gtVObMg

I've seen what fires to Motorhomes they look like the Hindenburg when the smoke clears.

[Iceni John]

The main concerns voiced about CSST were based on lightning strikes (hardly a common occurrence for RVs) and being punctured by nails (again, not going to happen in a vehicle).   CSST was originally developed in Japan as a better alternative than traditional rigid pipe and fittings for houses in earthquake-prone areas  -  I would consider a vehicle's needs not unlike those of a house designed to cope with earthquakes, i.e  flexibility and resistance to vibration, and CSST is better than rigid pipe in that regard.

Many RV fires are caused by their poorly-made typical RV propane fridges  -  they all seem to start about mid-way along the RV where a fridge would be located.   Other fires are engine-related.   Neither of these are related to the type of gas pipe used.   Besides, if an RV has a RVIA sticker on it, it doesn't prove that it's safe or well-made  -  I feel that us converters probably take much greater care in designing and making our bus conversions than the typical mass-produced S&S RVs that are made as cheaply as possible (e.g. Romex stapled to the walls, flimsy straps holding propane tanks in place, cheap plastic electrical inlets, etc etc.).   I would like to think that most of us meet or exceed NFPA 1192 when we build our conversions.

John

[BlueScarecrow]

The main concerns voiced about CSST were based on lightning strikes (hardly a common occurrence for RVs) and being punctured by nails (again, not going to happen in a vehicle).   CSST was originally developed in Japan as a better alternative than traditional rigid pipe and fittings for houses in earthquake-prone areas  -  I would consider a vehicle's needs not unlike those of a house designed to cope with earthquakes, i.e  flexibility and resistance to vibration, and CSST is better than rigid pipe in that regard.

Many RV fires are caused by their poorly-made typical RV propane fridges  -  they all seem to start about mid-way along the RV where a fridge would be located.   Other fires are engine-related.   Neither of these are related to the type of gas pipe used.   Besides, if an RV has a RVIA sticker on it, it doesn't prove that it's safe or well-made  -  I feel that us converters probably take much greater care in designing and making our bus conversions than the typical mass-produced S&S RVs that are made as cheaply as possible (e.g. Romex stapled to the walls, flimsy straps holding propane tanks in place, cheap plastic electrical inlets, etc etc.).   I would like to think that most of us meet or exceed NFPA 1192 when we build our conversions.

John

The main concern I had about CSST was that it is usually run through the bays and if not over-properly installed and protected would be subject to abrasion and blows from any equipment stored in the bays. If CSST were a quality alternative, all production motorhomes would jump on that to save money; but they don't.

CSST wall thickness is about .35 or .40 thousands of an inch with a 1/16" plastic sheath. Given some thought... this is quite feeble.

Since CSST is run through the bays and gas is heavier than air, the lower bays would completely fill up with explosive LPG unbeknownst to the occupants above the floor line. Then a switch is thrown, or some automatic equipment kicks in and a spark ignites 350 cubic feet of sheer violence giving the tenants a leg up to the next life, leaving the neighbors (left alive) to exclaim... "Boy... that was loud."

Most Motorhomes that I know of run good old black pipe. Its sturdy, robust and will take a beating. So far, no fires related to black pipe, but as CSST becomes more widespread, I'm sure the stats will speak volumes.

The chief reason for RV fires is in fact refrigerators and the two main culprits are Dometic and Norcold; and that in itself is amazing. The Omish have taken the reins and developed replacement guts for the Dometic (I believe) and so far... no fires. Way to go Omish!!! The old ways are the best.

I've decided to run a 3/4 Black Pipe buss the length of the Coach and tee off where necessary. Mounted with strut and clamps and grometed where it goes through the bay walls. Will show pics when I'm done.

[gumpy]

You're new to this whole RVing thing, aren't you?


There are pros and cons to every possible alternative, including the ones you've decided to pursue. You've make up your mind and formed your opinions based
on information you've found and scenarios you've invented, whether realistic or not. In the course of two posts, you've given three scenarios that have
about the same chance of happening as the U.S. has of hearing the truth when the current occupant of the White House speaks. You're going to install a tank that is over
40 years old using rigid pipe with multiple fittings down the length of you bus because you're concerned about damage caused by irresponsible operation, chaffing
due to improper installation, punctures, lightening strikes, and God knows what else resulting in a conflagration of apocalyptic proportions. You're comparing buses
to commercially built motorhomes when discussing flammability, and suggesting that production motorhome manufacturers make decisions based on the quality
of materials.  And you're comparing wall thickness of two completely different materials.

Well, ok. You've done your homework. Now do what you think will work best for you. Your permanent tank and black pipe will work just fine, with a lot more effort
to install it. It won't eliminate any of your catastrophic scenarios, other than possibly that of your teenage son not tightening the tanks but unless you're planning to
use your bus for off-roading, that's not really a concern, either, with proper installation. Black pipe can crack. Fittings can leak. Chaffing can occur. Nails and screws
can puncture it just as well. Lightening can strike a bus, too.

The whole reason for having these forums is so people can get all possible information and opinions and then go do as they please.

[digesterman]

In the course of two posts, you've given three scenarios that have
about the same chance of happening as the U.S. has of hearing the truth when the current occupant of the White House speaks.

LOL Love it gumpy


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[BlueScarecrow]

You're new to this whole RVing thing, aren't you?


There are pros and cons to every possible alternative, including the ones you've decided to pursue. You've make up your mind and formed your opinions based
on information you've found and scenarios you've invented, whether realistic or not. In the course of two posts, you've given three scenarios that have
about the same chance of happening as the U.S. has of hearing the truth when the current occupant of the White House speaks. You're going to install a tank that is over
40 years old using rigid pipe with multiple fittings down the length of you bus because you're concerned about damage caused by irresponsible operation, chaffing
due to improper installation, punctures, lightening strikes, and God knows what else resulting in a conflagration of apocalyptic proportions. You're comparing buses
to commercially built motorhomes when discussing flammability, and suggesting that production motorhome manufacturers make decisions based on the quality
of materials.  And you're comparing wall thickness of two completely different materials.

Well, ok. You've done your homework. Now do what you think will work best for you. Your permanent tank and black pipe will work just fine, with a lot more effort
to install it. It won't eliminate any of your catastrophic scenarios, other than possibly that of your teenage son not tightening the tanks but unless you're planning to
use your bus for off-roading, that's not really a concern, either, with proper installation. Black pipe can crack. Fittings can leak. Chaffing can occur. Nails and screws
can puncture it just as well. Lightening can strike a bus, too.

The whole reason for having these forums is so people can get all possible information and opinions and then go do as they please.

I believe lightning has struck you... several times.

I'm hoping to go on as I please, but you seemingly to want to retard my progress with this unfriendly and antagonistic banter.

I was a Special Effects Supervisor providing Special Effects to the Motion Picture Industry, flying people on wires, explosive bullet hits on principle actors and blowing things up close to the camera and crew without incident. I do my homework... and come to my own conclusions. I keep it safe.

I am a pilot. I fly helicopters and airplanes... never an accident or a close call. I have a CDL and 33 years under my belt with no accidents.

I trust my own judgement; its been good to me.

The 40 year old tank has been inspected and certified by professionals; I'm comfortable with that. I'm comfortable with the black pipe. I'm comfortable with the fittings. I am comfortable with the work that I do; I know it will be sound.

When it comes to wall thickness, lets stick with one material... would you rather walk on thin ice of thick ice? I don't know about you, but for me it's a no-brainer.

It's clear that you have a real burr under your saddle about something. Maybe you have installed CSST in your Coach.

If you have, it is my fervent wish that we do not hear of any unfortunate incidents regarding that install.

BTW, I've heard of straws penetrating trees during a storm, but never any screws or nails penetrating black pipe. If you have pics or a link, I'd love to see it.



Best regards,
Mike

[gumpy]

I believe lightning has struck you... several times.

I'm hoping to go on as I please, but you seemingly to want to retard my progress with this unfriendly and antagonistic banter.

I was a Special Effects Supervisor providing Special Effects to the Motion Picture Industry, flying people on wires, explosive bullet hits on principle actors and blowing things up close to the camera and crew without incident. I do my homework... and come to my own conclusions. I keep it safe.

I am a pilot. I fly helicopters and airplanes... never an accident or a close call. I have a CDL and 33 years under my belt with no accidents.

I trust my own judgement; its been good to me.

The 40 year old tank has been inspected and certified by professionals; I'm comfortable with that. I'm comfortable with the black pipe. I'm comfortable with the fittings. I am comfortable with the work that I do; I know it will be sound.

When it comes to wall thickness, lets stick with one material... would you rather walk on thin ice of thick ice? I don't know about you, but for me it's a no-brainer.

It's clear that you have a real burr under your saddle about something. Maybe you have installed CSST in your Coach.

If you have, it is my fervent wish that we do not hear of any unfortunate incidents regarding that install.

BTW, I've heard of straws penetrating trees during a storm, but never any screws or nails penetrating black pipe. If you have pics or a link, I'd love to see it.



Best regards,
Mike

Well, first, let me apologize to you Mike. While I don't intend to be abrasive and rude, it appears I was in my last post, and that's not right. 

It seemed to me that you were asking for advice only to turn around and argue with each suggestion. You made up your mind to use black
pipe, (which, by the way, is a perfectly valid solution and has a long history of successful use) because you decided the alternatives being offered
were not safe even though the scenarios you invented were either installation failure (which you control), or user error (again, which you control),
or natural events which are unrealistic for the bus environment.

Yes, I have CSST installed in my bus. I have about 70,000 miles with it in, and not a single issue. It hasn't rubbed through. It hasn't chaffed. It hasn't been
struck by lightening or leaked into my bays. It was easy to install. It was easy to protect from the damages you fear. I'm not at all concerned about
problems arising. But, I understand it's not for everyone.

Your decision to use black pipe is fine. It will serve your needs just fine. It will take more effort to install, but you will have peace of mind.

Again, my apologies for posting that abrasive comment above.

craig

[luvrbus]

To each his own all my pipping was done with Parker propane hose the remote fill was the only black pipe in my system

[BlueScarecrow]

Well, first, let me apologize to you Mike. While I don't intend to be abrasive and rude, it appears I was in my last post, and that's not right. 

It seemed to me that you were asking for advice only to turn around and argue with each suggestion. You made up your mind to use black
pipe, (which, by the way, is a perfectly valid solution and has a long history of successful use) because you decided the alternatives being offered
were not safe even though the scenarios you invented were either installation failure (which you control), or user error (again, which you control),
or natural events which are unrealistic for the bus environment.

Yes, I have CSST installed in my bus. I have about 70,000 miles with it in, and not a single issue. It hasn't rubbed through. It hasn't chaffed. It hasn't been
struck by lightening or leaked into my bays. It was easy to install. It was easy to protect from the damages you fear. I'm not at all concerned about
problems arising. But, I understand it's not for everyone.

Your decision to use black pipe is fine. It will serve your needs just fine. It will take more effort to install, but you will have peace of mind.

Again, my apologies for posting that abrasive comment above.

craig

Dear Craig,

Thank you for your apology.

I am basically a contingency person... "What if?"

In Special Effects, the most harrowing job is to fly people on wires. While on "The Judas Project", I had to fly 3 people simultaneously. If you drop someone and injure them, it's bad enough... and basically your career is over. If you kill someone, your conscience takes over and vexes you for the rest of your life.

Until CG (computer graphics) Directors and DP's would be screaming... "I can see the wires.", but I would have to hold my ground and post would have to rotoscope them out. Nowadays, you take your mouse,click on the wire and hit delete; very easy.

Here is some more information and quite frankly, something I totally forgot.

Scenario... A Coach is parked at a campsite. A nearby tree is struck by lightning. The resultant magnetic field produced by the strike induces an electrical surge in the electrical and piping systems of the nearby Coach and causes significant damage.

From: http://csstsafety.com/CSST-solution.html

"Nearby lightning strikes can also result in an electrical surge and can potentially puncture a hole in the CSST."

An AM Radio Station Tower has guy lines that have been deliberately cut to irregular lengths to eliminate any possibly of harmonic resonance. If the Tower is 50,000 watts hot, a nearby wire that is at a resonant length is also 50,000 watts hot. The reason is resonance. Even the cyclone fencing that surrounds the tuning houses is calculated.

From: http://www.grefesidney.com/documents/presentations/mik_99AA531161169.pdf

"The real problem: CSST is so thin-walled that it creates a significant fire hazard anywhere it is installed.

CSST gas line is extremely thin, with walls typically around 0.008" in thickness. Black iron gas pipe is typically 0.12" in thickness.
Put another way, the walls of black iron pipe are 15 times thicker than the walls of CSST tubing. When this is considered,
perhaps it is not surprising that the amount of electrical energy needed to defeat traditional black iron pipe is about 15 times more
than the energy needed to defeat the much thinner walls of CSST tubing."

.008 is really thin; its not even on the fraction to decimal chart; it is 1/128".  I thought it was at least .035 which is thin also.

Black Pipe is .125 which is an 1/8" wall.

If this doesn't give you cause for pause, I guess nothing will.

If you ever consider going back to black pipe, I have all of the tools and I will help you for free.


Sincerely,
Mike