Overpriced EL3's

[Boomer]

I've always believed that when you buy newer coaches you are buying more than the bus, ie financing, parts availability, service and tech support and resale value. You do your research and you throw in with  the manufacturer that will support you.  When it came time for my company to start buying new buses (1998) we evaluated them all.  MCI, Prevost, Van Hool, even Irazar and the Bluebird distributor even dragged in a new 3 axle coach much to my amusement.  We drove and evaluated the E and D MCI and the XL and H and the T945 which was VanHool's big bus at the time.  We chose Prevost and were NEVER sorry.  The new E turned out to be a disaster and as you know most of the early ones had to be returned to the factory.  I knew the new platform would be problematic and it sure was.  Our next new coach order was three years later for 3 more new ones and we looked very hard at the J model and liked it.  But not enough to sway us away from Prevost (such as disc brakes).  We bought XLII's  that time.  They were cheaper than the J too.  Now, I understand that you are inquiring about the used coach market.  If you are looking at buses with 150K to 200K miles to start out with you better hope they had great maintenance, and better have a spare. A lot of small operators run the hell out of them while in warranty and never put a wrench on them then dump them.  IMHO nobody can beat Prevost tech support.  We actually have had them come into our shop on more than one occasion and replace componants that were way out of warranty for no charge what so ever. An we didn't even have to do the work. As for Van Hool, after 8 years they were worth half as much on the market as the same year Prevost.  I rest my case.  Don't know why folks are asking more for a used E these days especially a '99 'cause in my opinion they are junk.  I have a friend in MN that owns an all MCI fleet and he had an E that was so bad that he had to trade it in on a new J just to get rid of it.  OK, let the flames begin.

[Swadian]

Thanks Boomer, appreciate your informative reply. See, that's why I'm really confused about the E and hence why I started this thread on this board in the first place. Now there's really no reason, I guess, why the E is selling for so much these days.

Do you know why exactly the early E's were returned to the factory? Did they ever manage to fix the problems? I know the E was the great big fad back in 1996, then turned into a massive flop by 2004.

[B_K]

Having never owned any MCI's newer than a couple '85-86 A models I have stayed out of all this.

But I have known several friends/associates that had E models and were sorry they did!

The 3 biggest problems I know of on the '98-99 E models were;
#1) the electronic suspension was a nightmare and last I heard they still go thru control modules like mad @ $3000 ea.
#2) they were designed poorly and for some reason the windshields would just "POP" out if sealed up tight on a hot day! (personally saw it happen on MCI's Lebanon, TN sales lot one day)
#3) All the plastic luggage bay doors and stuff were cheap and either fell off or warped so bad you wished they'd fallen off!

Those are the 3 things I heard the most complaints/warnings about when we were shopping for newer buses!

Now back to why you weren't getting the answers you were looking for on this board.
Most folks on this board have either bought a used seated coach and converted it themselves or bought one already converted and modified it to their liking.
Very few store bought conversion shells here!

Clifford aka "Luvrbus" is by far the most knowledgeable busnut here and also by far has the most connections in any of the bus markets be it professional conversions, home conversions, or seated!
So even though he may not have given the answers you were looking for he gave you STRAIGHT answers!

That's just my 2 cents worth ! (which along with a couple bucks will get you a cup of coffee!)
  BK 

[Swadian]

I know, I just kinda freaked out earlier in the thread I guess, I think I was really frustrated or something.

BK, have some A's? I heard they have some frame problems but nothing too bad. I saw a 102A3 ex-Storer conversion here in Reno, a 1986 I think. Sat around for a day then drove away.

I heard from a Phoenix mechanic named Robert Moore, who has a 1969 MC-7 conversion, said he saw some Volvo 9700's with the same popping windshields. He said the windshields on the Volvos get warped and mangled before popping. I don't know if the E windshield would just pop out or get damaged then pop out? I heard the Volvo ones would be sealed up properly but it would get warped in the middle and then pop out.

It seems to me that the J4500 has the same windshield as the E but it doesn't pop out all the time?

How often do they go through the ECU modules? I heard a Greyhound G4500 has the fan guard fall off and destroy the fan after running 5,000 miles on the odometer. I know that's not the suspension, but pretty d**m bad.

Don't understand the plastic luggage doors either, the J also has plastic doors as does the H, AFAIK. Also the G had plastic doors and they fell off all the time but they were built in Sahagun at cheap labor prices, and even the G luggage doors have been re-secured or so I hear. If the doors are about to fall off, can one just re-secure them?

Well, I looked for pics and found this GLC EL3 damaged: http://www.busdrawings.com/greyhoundca/102el3/gh1088.jpg. Now sold to Rocky Mountain Railtours according to a GLC source.

Is this a replaced bumper? http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/gray-line/gry-line_1094.jpg.

Another bumper fell off? http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/greyhound/gray-line/gry-line_461.jpg. Looks like undercarriage damage too.

Here's something I found on the Greyhound discussion group which I'm part of: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/greyhoundthroughexpress/conversations/messages/14760.

Right now I don't understand how the heck LV Bus Sales is selling a 1999 EL3 for $109,000. They are selling a 1999 Prevost H3-45 with less than a quarter the mileage for only $84,995. Both Detroit 60 with Allison B500. I know there's got be plenty of H3-45 owners here, a lot better than a EL3?

[luvrbus]

They can all build junk I guess we bought a brand new 1997 Prevost conversion the first year for IFS that my friends was a turd in a punch bowl not the conversion but the bus we ended up after 3 years getting our money back that bus has never been seen or sold ever again that I can find lol it was replaced with a 1974 Eagle which is still on the road  
The part I don't understand is why some love the bus and some hate it at Arrow his pecking order is Setra 1st MCI 2nd and the H's at the bottom which he doesn't buy any longer that is probably a pissing contest between him and Prevost about something I know they were upset about the down time on the D13 Volvo engine in the H's I don't where they rate the few VanHools they own

[robertglines1]

possible explanation on EL3---fresh engine--fresh trans--If not that old of coach miles is on borrowed time. In coach use 600,000 miles is about done. trucks run them a Million sometimes. Another EL3 on e-bay now for 50grand..  We  all dream a perfect world.. We let you know--Most schools won't except anything over 5 yrs old. Also pointed out reality of cost of having a extra coach or having to subcontract trips because of breakdowns..    It's your show to make or break..  Busting is hard (been  there) so when we share it is past experience.  Get down to it the basic drive line is the same in most. Computer problems were pointed out as well as body panel problems.  If you plan on running 16 yr old coaches buy in threes and hope to keep 2 on the road and have a plan B with another charter operator.  Lost service news gets around quick..  Reputation is everything.  I'm   out of this discussion.. This reply was for other readers as you have made up your mind.. or just stirring sh-t..   Bob

[luvrbus]

LOL  probably new modules for the multiplex wiring system Bob,any bus with the CAN or Multiplex wiring are a night mare.Prevost is giving it try and my understanding it is eating their lunch with the modules costing 1000+ bucks for each heck you could have run wires and relays to each component and do away with the lap top and software for 1 module 

They all have problems or there would be no need for the 10 million dollars service centers all over the USA Prevost has 10 in USA and Canada plus the Volvo truck dealers MCI has 7 and Vanhool has 6   someone pays for those there would be no need for those if we lived in a perfect world     

[RJ]

Sometimes I think there are more GMC PD4104s out on the roads as conversions than there are MCI "E" models in revenue service!

[belfert]

I know, I just kinda freaked out earlier in the thread I guess, I think I was really frustrated or something.

Most busnuts doing their own conversions aren't using EL3 coaches yet because they cost way more than most want to spend on a bus.  There are still lots of folks here buying 1970s and 1980s buses cheap for bus conversions.  If someone wanted to spend $90,000 on an EL3 they could probably find a pretty decent Prevost already converted for not much more dollar wise.

Most of the users here have never run a bus company with passenger coaches.  It is like going to a forum for classic cars and asking about the reliability of an early 1990s Chevy.

[CrabbyMilton]

I had a nice conversation with driver about 14 years ago. He said that while the MCI E was nice bus as far as ride and comfort plus great looks, it had alot of things that left a bad impression for many. One of the biggest issues is that the tag axle is of the steerable type and could not be locked out. As a result, some of the earlier E models had rear damage because they swung out too quickly although some drivers may have not been used to it either. But regardless, the ablilty to lock it out was omitted. The J4500 I think is safe to say is basically a much much improved version of the now discontinued E4500. I never hear to many bad things about them. As E4500 may very well be a good deal but as others have said, the market will determine it.

[Swadian]

I've seen Greyhound odometers in excess of 1,600,000 miles, so only 600,000 seems amazingly low. Also, Greyhound made a news release saying their average unit runs 130,000 miles a year, they have 1998's in service so that would be over 2,000,000 miles already.

I heard some drivers prefer the higher driver's seat of the E over the H.

[luvrbus]

Bob is talking about the engine you are lucky to get 700,000 miles on a series 60 or other engines in a bus.I saw the Mexican bus line that was Greyhound pull the 60's at 400,000 miles at Stewart and Stevenson in El Paso 

I bet they don't do it now with a rebuild costing 50 to 60 grand for series 60 or more for the DD13 engine

[Swadian]

You mean Americanos? Yeah, they were horrible to ride.

Greyhound new release somewhere said that rebuilding the DL3's cost $120,000 but that wasn't just a powertrain rebuild, it was apparently a complete rebuild.

So now I'm getting Arrow likes the E more than H? But most people seem to like the H more? Do drivers complain about the H driver position being too low?

Has anyone here driven an EL3?

[luvrbus]

It's a pissing contest with Steve and Prevost it has been going for several years now and I don't ask why

[Swadian]

Then the E is just no good compared to the H and J?

I'm guessing this is a rebuilt Detroit 60 in a H? http://www.lasvegasbussales.com/coach-buses-for-sale/used-bus-1999-prevost-h3-45-highway-coach-58-passenger-c12656.

I see MCI's E, supposed to challenge the H head-to-head, has failed miserably and ended up getting replaced by the J.