Overpriced EL3's

[Swadian]

Hey guys, I'm new on this board. I'm not a bus converter, but I do ride Greyhound a lot. I'm planning to start a bus line in a few years and saving up right now, so I'm looking at used buses and looking for info. Since I'm planning to run a bus line, average yearly mileage would be at least 135,000 miles going up to 180,000 miles.

I thought I might need some high luggage capacity so I was looking at the high-deckers and found the MCI 102EL3 has 445 cubic feet and is unaffected by a wheelchair-lift retrofit, unlike the H3-45 which loses capacity with the installation of a lift and has less parcel rack capacity.

The problem is, most EL3's on the market seem heavily overpriced and I've also heard bad things about them including fires and frequent breakdowns. At the prices being charged by Las Vegas Bus Sales and other dealers, they seem to be a big waste of money.

This is the cheapest I could find: http://sales.mcicoach.com/preowned/pcoach.nsf/(searchresults)/68B37A8350617F0286257C9A00730F19?editdocument.

I also found this: http://www.lasvegasbussales.com/coach-buses-for-sale/used-bus-1998-mci-102-el3-56-passenger-highway-coach-c60197.

944,839-mile EL3 for nearly $70,000!

And this $110,000 unit with Torino VIP seating: http://www.lasvegasbussales.com/coach-buses-for-sale/used-bus-for-sale-1999-mci-102el3-with-detroit-diesel-allison-combo-c60863.

Don't even know if that's hub odometer or dash odometer. But really? Those prices seem to be pretty darn high. Anybody know why they are so expensive despite all the known problems about them? Did they fix the problems or did they just forget about it and sell off the spiral staircase?

I know to stay away from Northeast buses but how are Midwest buses? I know the Southwest buses should be the best due to large deserts with little to no moisture or salt corrosion.

I'm not buying anything right now, need to save up a few years more. But just looking at those offerings, I've been appalled at the EL3's high prices.

Thanks for you time. I'm always happy to learn about buses.

[Jon]

You do realize that everything is a trade off, right? What you save on the front end buying old coaches eats you up on the back end keeping them running. This may come as a shock but a repair on a $20,000 used coach costs the same as the repair on a $400,000 new coach. That makes you question why you are dumping money that adds nothing to the value into an old coach.

Have you run the math? Have you considered the costs of depreciation as a tax benefit? Assuming you are in business to make money new coaches have a substantial economic benefit to their owners in addition to the obvious one of reliability. Have you considered the impact of down time on old coaches to you and the customer? What about the safety aspects? Older coaches don't come close to the safety of the newer coaches with stability control, adaptive braking, fire suppression systems, etc.

There are no silver bullets in business. If you can find a niche market where an old coach will work, go for it. Especially if you are highly skilled as a mechanic and keep that old coach running reliably. The older and cheaper the coach however, the more band aids you can expect to need. And customer loyalty goes down the toilet if your coach load of people sits by the side of the road awaiting the wrecker and a replacement coach.

[luvrbus]

Just buy BK's and his parents complete operation it's for sale, the E series must not be to bad of a bus they sure keep their value compared to the others it's hard to find a super deal on 1 fwiw 

[Lin]

Even if you do not buy BK's business, he would be an absolute gold mine of information.

[Swadian]

I'm not looking to buy very old coaches like the MC-9, I'm talking about late 1990s and early 2000s coaches which are still in service with Greyhound (like the 102DL3), albeit the older ones got a $120,000 rebuild, but then again, they got that rebuild at about 1,500,000 miles. Meanwhile, Greyhound's new D4505's are burning up and breaking down frequently, so new coaches are not going to work.

I'm pretty sure a 1998 102DL3 would be fine, but a 1998 102EL3 might be a huge waste of money.

I'm planning to run flat desert night runs that are not very demanding on coaches unless they break down, but look at those D4505's breaking down all the time in Greyhound service.

Did I mention burnings? https://www.flickr.com/photos/95851032@N07/14972733956/.

[muldoonman]

Don't know if you've seen this. Google, Cranky Ape Auctions, (Buy it Now Section) there is a 2009  Freightliner X-Line Mega Bus Limbusine ,Unit #49629. Buy it now for $90,000. 24,000 miles. Offer $75,000 and you would probably get it. Have bought a lot of goodies off this site.

[Swadian]

I don't see how I would be running a bus line with a Freightliner chassis motorhome.

I would really like to know why the EL3 is so expensive and if it was really that bad of a bus. Surely it can't be as bad as a Van Hool?

[luvrbus]

The are to many E's on the road to be a bad bus my buddy at Arrow Stage Lines in Phoenix thinks they are great he puts them right up with the Setras.FWIW all buses burn from fire in the engine compartment,tires or brakes

B&B in Vegas has a shop full of Prevost that had fires, now all bus manufactures are installing fire suppression in the engine compartment that is not just a Greyhound and the MCI E problem

I find the only MCI to really be a dog is the G design by Greyhound and made in Mexico I like the new VanHool TX 45 with the DD13 that is a sharp looking bus with a good power train     

[Swadian]

I know Arrow Stage Lines, but there's a problem. They are currently selling two E4500's through MCI Pre-Owned Bus Sales and replacing them with J4500's. Could you please say why your buddy at Arrow loves them? Because it seems like Arrow doesn't love them. Arrow currently uses J4500's for charters and tours, D4505's for routes. They also have a few body-on-chassis cutaways for rural routes. I don't know if they still have more E's, I know they used to run E's on the Denver-Omaha route, Greyhound doesn't go to Omaha anymore.

Here are the Arrow E's for sale:
http://sales.mcicoach.com/preowned/pcoach.nsf/(searchresults)/0707C4BA1A79AF8385257CD1005ABFC1?editdocument.
http://sales.mcicoach.com/preowned/pcoach.nsf/(searchresults)/B3ECF4C74BCD6D7785257CD100577CEA?editdocument.

I myself haven't seen a E in a long time, but I've seen tons and tons of J's. I've ridden a few E's and liked them myself but that is all I know.

Maybe the E isn't so bad after all, but still, their prices seem a bit too high especially compared to the H3-45's on the market. I thought the E was supposed to compete with the H3-45 but ended up failing.

Also, I heard the EL3 was "fixed" by 2000 but most units on the market are 1998's and 1999's, making me nervous that I would buy one and have it fall apart like a G4500 even though it's not made in Sahagun. I heard about "software updates" but can't find more information about that.

What do you guys think about H3-45 vs 102EL3/E4500?

Edit: The links don't work but they are indeed on MCI Pre-Owned Coach Sales.

[luvrbus]

E,J and Setra are about all he runs in Phoenix he is replacing some of his older E and doing the same with his older Setra's and Prevost's it is time some outfits won't lease his buses that are over 5 years old some of his E's are old for him, he uses nothing but the Setra's in his Corporate Coach division in Phoenix the guy owns 400 buses 

[eagle19952]

he uses nothing but the Setra's in his Corporate Coach division in Phoenix the guy owns 400 buses 

gives me the impression he knows a thing or two...

[luvrbus]

I don't under stand how in the world he is going to run a used bus 135,000 to 180,000 miles a year even if he could pull it off he would need 3 drivers for the 1 bus

[Swadian]

Yes, multiple drivers for the same bus, just like Greyhound does. I've got the mileage set up, no less than 135,000 miles a year, I just don't know if a EL3 can take that.

Greyhound Canada has a 1996 DL3 that was rebuilt at ~1,900,000 miles and now has ~2,300,000 miles on it, still running 130,000 miles a year on the highways, so really, that is one tough bus! I know I'd be fine with a well-maintained used DL3 below 1,000,000 miles, but what about the EL3?

Maybe its like a Setra, but Setra's apparently got rejected by Greyhound after a demo. And Van Hools are just not up to the task, I've known plenty of mechanics, drivers, and managers that hated them.

I know Arrow has some contracts requiring coaches newer than 5 years old, but could you ask him how many miles are on those EL3's he's selling? I can't buy for a few years but again, I heard the EL3's from 2000 and later are pretty good, so I would like to know how the market could turn out three years from now.

So does anyone know exactly the details of the EL3, why it's so expensive, and if a 1998 or 1999 is acceptable? Would greatly appreciate that info. I know there's some EL3 owners on this board. Thanks.

[luvrbus]

When was Setra rejected by Greyhound I see the Serta S407 all the time here at the bus station and have for over a year talking to the Greyhound drivers they love the S407 I don't where you got the rejection info from? 

I don't know how many VanHools Greyhound has but I know of 5 I personally saw in Idaho and Nev on a trip they were the new TX models one nice looking bus with the paint scheme and the dog on the sides here you do see a lot of the new D but not many older one

[Swadian]

You saw Greyhounds in Idaho? Greyhound's only route through Idaho is Denver-Portland and I've never seen or heard about a Van Hool on that route. It's usually a Denver-based D4505, sometimes a Blue G4500.

Greyhound tested the Setra's but did not place any major order, the order for that year (2013) went to MCI and Prevost.

I can assure you Greyhound has no Van Hool TX40/45 units, I have their full roster with VIN's. Perhaps it was a late-model C2045 or a CX45?

Where are you? I'm in Reno.

Anyways, I'm looking for info on the EL3 right now, and really EL3's have barely anything to do with Greyhound except Greyhound Canada had a few 1998 EL3's now mostly sold to Rocky Mountain Railtours because they apparently failed hard at line-haul. That's why I'm asking about the EL3 right now.