typical conversion component costs?

[busproject]

Also, I am a MCI guy, and I would recommend looking at MCI 102 D, or DL 3s. Excellent bus, basic, without the complexity of the Prevost H. Millions of Ds on the road, still supported by MCI, lots of parts for them.

Good luck in your endeavor.

JC

What's more complex about the Prevost H, for the same time period? They're not mutiplexed, are they?

What's the structure design on an MCI 102D? (like the Prevost, full stainless tube space frame?)

What appeals to me about the H is the quality of the structure (frame), and the height of the cargo bins. But I do admit that I see a lot more of the 102DL3, they must be a real workhorse because that's all I see Greyhound using in this area, although I am reading they are now using Prevost as well. (I think I recall MCI and Greyhound being the same company at one point (one owning the other or both owned by a parent), but no longer I think.)

[Oonrahnjay]

So what are we looking at for ballpark costs of said inverter, plus how big a battery bank? I will assume said costs are without any wiring, unless you tell me a packaged installed price.  

    Unfortunately, the answer to those questions is the same answer that you got to about ever complex question in your professional career "It depends"!  If you're going to be running a lot of power through your inverter, you're going to need a high-wattage inverter (duuhh!!!) and they're more expensive.  If you're going to have a propane fridge, hot water heater, and cooking appliances, you might get by with a lower-wattage inverter.  A big factor in this is often "do you plan to run air conditioning through your inverter?" -- that a big current draw item.  Basically, for inverter capacity, you pay by the watt.  
    And for just about every modern purpose, you're going to need a pure-sine wave inverter (unless you don't).  Load sharing, complex battery charging, transfer switching, low-battery generator automatic generator starting capability; are you going to want/need those?  Just bring money.
    And yes, wiring, breaker boxes and breakers, switches, transfer switches, and miscellaneous will be extra.
    And batteries are another "how long a piece of string do you need?" question.  I have a friend who recently spent about $3500 on a new battery set.  He could easily kill them in 48 hours by being only moderately stupid or careless.  But he bought his bus with a huge battery capacity and, when he needed new batteries, he decided to keep that capacity.

    But lets try to be generally helpful here.  Here's a WAIG on your direct questions:

1)  Cost of inverter -- To get the features that most people want puts you in a price range.  You'll find some impossibly small inverters with the features that you want, and some with way more capacity than most people need.  But for a healthy capacity, with reasonable reliability, and useful features, you're probably looking at about $2000/$2200, with a low maybe down in the $1500 range (low features) and a high up to Mars.   Add $$$ for cabling, control systems (the control system for my "Outback" inverter is called the "Mate" device; it's a computer control for most of the features), fusing or breakers, plain switches, transfer switches, etc., $600 - $900.  But with any and all parts of this, moderately larger wattage capacities or additional necessary features could easily double these estimates.
2)  Battery bank -- to get about 250 useful amp hours, you'd want a minimum of two "8-D" size batteries, deep cycle.  If you're lucky, you're looking at $250-$300 each.  But some people would sell a kidney so that they could pay for AGM or gel-cell batteries instead of wet-cell and that will about double the price.  At least your cost of cabling, switching, controls, etc. has already been figured into your inverter purchase.  But two 8-D deep cycle batteries will run a single rooftop air conditioner for maybe 45 minutes if you're not pulling any other electrical loads; i.e., not really useful for any extended service, maybe only to keep The Management cool while you switch the engine off and establish your shore power connection or start your generator.  If you're going to have big electrical loads, you'll need more battery power (unless you plan to pay $30-$90 a night to plug into a shore power outlet at a campground every time you stop overnight, or invest big money in a generator or solar).  How much power you want?  How much money you got?

   Oh, did I just mention the words "generator" and "solar" -- how friendly are you with your bank manager??

   Sorry, I don't mean to be obscure here, but these are complex issues.  

[Jon]

I am an advocate for plagiarism in that the professional conversions are using systems that have evolved over a lot of years. Those converters do not cut corners and the equipment and devices used have stood the test of time.

In another life I was responsible for developing new products. I know the effort required to design a product and source the components to create a durable reliable product. For anyone to think they can create a bus conversion without literally copying what others have done is not a good idea in my opinion. I am continually in awe of the extent converters go to create reliable systems, doing things often not visible or noteworthy, but very valuable in the long run.

No matter what you think you can live with, it will not be good enough. 100 gallons of water is nice, but 150 is nicer. A set of 4 8D batteries is nice, but 6 or 8 is even better. 3000 watts of inverter is adequate, but a pair of 3000 watt inverters is better. You can get away with a 10 KW generator, but 20 KW is the new standard. 3 15,000 BTU AC units will keep the coach cool, but now 4 15,000 BTU AC units is the minimum, and if you look at the current entertainer coaches they are often running with 5 or 6 AC units.

Wiring can be good quality copper, but our converter is using tinned copper marine grade stranded copper wiring with no splices or connections between the source and the device. My point is the conversions have evolved to provide reliable service so the owners can enjoy their travels without compromise or without having to do constant repairs. Our coaches go down the road trying to shake themselves to death.

Even if you opt to do your own conversion, at the very least poke your nose in every professional conversion you can to see and understand how they are built. Even if some things seem excessive and don't make sense, they really have been done that way for a reason.

[luvrbus]

The MCI D is a good bus and like all they sometimes have a rust problem in 2 areas the air beam supports will rot and so will the engine cradle

The H is not exempt from rust either they have a problem at the rear bulk head  service wise the H is easier to have repaired on the road not only at the service centers but the larger Volvo truck dealers service the Prevost parts are cheaper for Prevost  

I don't care much for the over designed air system on Prevost the MCI is less complicated Prevost has the advantage in the engine cooling IMO it is a roll of the dice but it makes no sense to me to convert a million mile bus chassis but then we all do it different as individuals  

I would go for a conversion built on the Prevost VIP shell, turn the key on start the engine and drive off and do your changes as you have time and money the VIP-H shell has more head room and less storage than the seated coach because of the lower floors you may not need the head room but it is a plus for some  JMO

[Oonrahnjay]

I am an advocate for plagiarism in that the professional conversions are using systems that have evolved over a lot of years. Those converters do not cut corners and the equipment and devices used have stood the test of time.
... 

    Yeah, everything that Jon said in that post I agree with.  And I don't know anyone who finished up a conversion and said "I wish I had less water" or "I wish I had less electrical power".

[lvmci]

WOW! One of he most informative and honestly well presented discussions I have seen for basic design choices. Very impressive, tom, lvmci...

[luvrbus]

Lol I hope the code gods don't see the part about tinned marine wire in a bus conversion that has been a hot topic here I copied the converters and used it great stuff IMO

[lostagain]

MCI D models, D3 being 40' and the DL3 45', are all stainless steel up to the floor level. Yes there are still areas prone to rusting in a car from the North, but there are some that have always been in the South. I have one ('77 5C) with no rust that spent all its life in San Diego, CA, before being converted. A northern bus will have corrosion in the electrical panels up front below the driver, and in the battery compartment where the Vanner equalizer is, as well as the wiring for the Webasto heater, if equipped, and around the rad and intercooler fans above the engine. All the outside lights also suffer from moisture and salt. But that would be with any vehicle from the North.

A rust free bus with a million miles can be in better shape if it was well maintained than a neglected low mileage one. You just have to spend the time to go look at several so you get to know what you're looking at.

Remember that Prevost is French (from Quebec City), and that means complex just because it is French LOL. I am French myself. You will find the MCI D models were built as a basic bus for durability and serviceability.

Bottom line is, and I think everyone will agree, money is what it takes to play with buses. Although it is a little more justifiable if it is also your full time home.

JC

[busproject]

The MCI D is a good bus and like all they sometimes have a rust problem in 2 areas the air beam supports will rot and so will the engine cradle

The H is not exempt from rust either they have a problem at the rear bulk head  service wise the H is easier to have repaired on the road not only at the service centers but the larger Volvo truck dealers service the Prevost parts are cheaper for Prevost  

I don't care much for the over designed air system on Prevost the MCI is less complicated Prevost has the advantage in the engine cooling IMO it is a roll of the dice but it makes no sense to me to convert a million mile bus chassis but then we all do it different as individuals  

I would go for a conversion built on the Prevost VIP shell, turn the key on start the engine and drive off and do your changes as you have time and money the VIP-H shell has more head room and less storage than the seated coach because of the lower floors you may not need the head room but it is a plus for some  JMO

Good to know about the corrosion issues, thanks. I like the tallness of the H, the MCI-D's luggage bays are a lot shorter (want easy storage of bikes and other things) and the MCI-Es are still way too pricey. So it would probably be a Prevost H, if I did it at all.

Regarding the merits of converting a million mile shell, it's about the numbers. It's an expensive chassis, if the structure is in good shape, it all depends on the costs of rehabbing everything else, because I would expect with that many miles and years, everything major will need rebuild. Engine. Trans. Air bags. Air switches. Brake shoes. Drive axle. So it's a question what that all adds up to.

[busproject]

    ...If you're going to have a propane fridge, hot water heater, and cooking appliances, you might get by with a lower-wattage inverter.  A big factor in this is often "do you plan to run air conditioning through your inverter?" -- that a big current draw item.  Basically, for inverter capacity, you pay by the watt.  
    ...And for just about every modern purpose, you're going to need a pure-sine wave inverter (unless you don't).  Load sharing, complex battery charging, transfer switching, low-battery generator automatic generator starting capability; are you going to want/need those?  Just bring money.
     ...And batteries are another "how long a piece of string do you need?" question.  I have a friend who recently spent about $3500 on a new battery set.  He could easily kill them in 48 hours by being only moderately stupid or careless.  But he bought his bus with a huge battery capacity and, when he needed new batteries, he decided to keep that capacity.

    But lets try to be generally helpful here.  Here's a WAIG on your direct questions:

1)  Cost of inverter -- ...for a healthy capacity, with reasonable reliability, and useful features, you're probably looking at about $2000/$2200, with a low maybe down in the $1500 range (low features) and a high up to Mars.   Add $$$ for cabling, control systems (the control system for my "Outback" inverter is called the "Mate" device; it's a computer control for most of the features), fusing or breakers, plain switches, transfer switches, etc., $600 - $900...
2)  Battery bank -- ...two 8-D deep cycle batteries will run a single rooftop air conditioner for maybe 45 minutes if you're not pulling any other electrical loads; i.e., not really useful for any extended service...

   Oh, did I just mention the words "generator" and "solar" -- how friendly are you with your bank manager??

   Sorry, I don't mean to be obscure here, but these are complex issues.  

Good answers.

Not looking for a massive battery electrical system, due to the following:

Not planning to power the AC for hours at a time. I generally tend to shy away from very hot areas. Might need it just for an initial evening cool-down from baking in the sun all day even in temperate areas, but hoping to have sufficient ventilation to obviate need for this. In this vein, I really like the roof on old Land Rovers, a roof above the roof with air space between, keeps the inside a lot cooler.

I will at minimum have gas powered appliances; preferably dual powered fridge if they make one; gas stove, with a portable or built-in inductive burner for use in camp to save fuel (love inductive way better than traditional electric, responds as fast as gas); gas heat, and use a portable electric heater when in camp to save fuel. So don't need massive battery power, need it mostly out of camp for lights (much more efficient than in past, will use LEDs), and computer and display/TV which will require more power than lights. Until they make propane-powered laptops, I think that will drive my battery power requirements. Water heater is a big question, would love to have dual power there but I think not possible. May also go instead with small heat-on-demand system. I also plan to have a workbench with a few power tools, but not use them often, and motors for short duration don't take that much power (I've used inverters before no problem), and would expect most use there to be when hooked up to land power. So I am guessing off the top of my head, I would require the moderate ("silver") level system you describe. No massive generator, but it would seem that a small generator would pay for itself by reducing engine hours on the Series 60. But I would at least like the ability to charge the house batteries from the big engine when underway, as that load is small compared to road load. Over time, as costs drop for flexible panels that conform to the roof line, I think solar cells are a given, that's cheap energy (if the system is relatively cheap and durable). If I could deploy it easily, I would even add a wind generator, as wind is plentiful along the west coast, right on the coast.

[busproject]

I am an advocate for plagiarism in that the professional conversions are using systems that have evolved over a lot of years. Those converters do not cut corners and the equipment and devices used have stood the test of time.

In another life I was responsible for developing new products. I know the effort required to design a product and source the components to create a durable reliable product. For anyone to think they can create a bus conversion without literally copying what others have done is not a good idea in my opinion. I am continually in awe of the extent converters go to create reliable systems, doing things often not visible or noteworthy, but very valuable in the long run.

No matter what you think you can live with, it will not be good enough. 100 gallons of water is nice, but 150 is nicer. A set of 4 8D batteries is nice, but 6 or 8 is even better. 3000 watts of inverter is adequate, but a pair of 3000 watt inverters is better. You can get away with a 10 KW generator, but 20 KW is the new standard. 3 15,000 BTU AC units will keep the coach cool, but now 4 15,000 BTU AC units is the minimum, and if you look at the current entertainer coaches they are often running with 5 or 6 AC units.

Wiring can be good quality copper, but our converter is using tinned copper marine grade stranded copper wiring with no splices or connections between the source and the device. My point is the conversions have evolved to provide reliable service so the owners can enjoy their travels without compromise or without having to do constant repairs. Our coaches go down the road trying to shake themselves to death.

Even if you opt to do your own conversion, at the very least poke your nose in every professional conversion you can to see and understand how they are built. Even if some things seem excessive and don't make sense, they really have been done that way for a reason.

Totally agree on plagiarism.

Big water supply is nice and doesn't cost that much additional. Big water HEATER requires a lot more energy. Would either go relatively small on that, or have on-demand heater. I take navy showers, but do want the capability of a typical long shower

As said above, battery capacity will be governed mostly by how much life I want for computer and display/TV. Oh, forgot sat hookup. Because I need my interwebby But new wireless devices may preclude need for that wherever there is cell coverage.

Agree about tinned copper cable, as my dad says, "Pays but little more to go first class", we're only talking marginal increase in material costs, zero increase in labor. And just condensation from big temp changes can wreak havoc, especially if I will be spending time right on the saltwater coast. But I'll also be sealing the ends of all cables to try to keep out any moisture, that can be a bit tough with fine stranded wire, but on two-aught battery cables I made, I saturated the ends with solder, then sealed with RTV, and used marine terminals.

"Even if some things seem excessive and don't make sense, they really have been done that way for a reason." Damn right. There's the right way, the wrong way, and the navy way When I build a house, I go well over code on the foundation. It's just not that much more money (strictly material cost), but incredibly important to maintenance costs.

[busproject]

MCI D models, D3 being 40' and the DL3 45', are all stainless steel up to the floor level. Yes there are still areas prone to rusting in a car from the North, but there are some that have always been in the South. I have one ('77 5C) with no rust that spent all its life in San Diego, CA, before being converted. A northern bus will have corrosion in the electrical panels up front below the driver, and in the battery compartment where the Vanner equalizer is, as well as the wiring for the Webasto heater, if equipped, and around the rad and intercooler fans above the engine. All the outside lights also suffer from moisture and salt. But that would be with any vehicle from the North.

A rust free bus with a million miles can be in better shape if it was well maintained than a neglected low mileage one. You just have to spend the time to go look at several so you get to know what you're looking at.

Remember that Prevost is French (from Quebec City), and that means complex just because it is French LOL. I am French myself. You will find the MCI D models were built as a basic bus for durability and serviceability.

Bottom line is, and I think everyone will agree, money is what it takes to play with buses. Although it is a little more justifiable if it is also your full time home.

JC

"...stainless up to the floor level..." Yeah that makes the decision easier, if I can get all stainless on a Prevost (or is it? I just saw stainless in the luggage bays...), unless they galvy the upper sections.

French: Oh, crap, it's not like a Citroen, is it? Aw jeez.... (Car Talk voice) "Never buy a French car, unless you live in France."

[Oonrahnjay]

    Re:  Water heater, I have an Atwood 3-Way; it has a 1500 watt electric coil, a propane burner, and a heat-transfer loop off the engine coolant/radiator.  I think it was in the $400 range.  Nice to have "free" hot water at the end of a drive; I think that they have 6 and 10 gallon models.  They have built-in tempering valves so that if the water inside is 190º by transfer from engine coolant, then it pulls X gallons of hot water and Y gallons of ambient temp water to make water that's about 117º.  So, when you're parked at the end of the day, you might have a supply of 16-18-20 gallons of "hot water" from a 10-gallon heater.

    Just my take on your proposed electrical system -- you're going to feel as if you're living in a tent that (probably) doesn't leak.  But everyone has to make choices and compromises and if you like those, then they're yours.  Again, my opinion, and that only my opinion but I have pretty strong feelings that that's the way it is.

[luvrbus]

H series are S/S tubing up to the floor level

[Iceni John]

Good answers.

In this vein, I really like the roof on old Land Rovers, a roof above the roof with air space between, keeps the inside a lot cooler.

Over time, as costs drop for flexible panels that conform to the roof line, I think solar cells are a given, that's cheap energy (if the system is relatively cheap and durable). If I could deploy it easily, I would even add a wind generator, as wind is plentiful along the west coast, right on the coast.

This is basically the idea behind what I'm doing  -  eight big PV panels hinged off a raised central walkway will cover most of my roof, and the two coats of Thermacels ceramic insulation additive in my roof paint (said to give five to ten degrees lower interior temps) should together keep direct sun off enough of the roof skin to make a useful difference.   I would still recommend you think carefully before going the flexible PV route;  maybe in some years from now they'll be a viable alternative to poly- or mono-crystalline conventional panels, but they're nowhere near that stage yet:  http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?20649-thin-film-performance&highlight=flexible   Wind generators have been tried by some RVers, and I think it's fair to say they're just not worth having.   They don't produce enough power to be useful, they're a hassle to put up and take down, they need (lots of) maintenance relative to their meager power output, they can be noisy, and if one falls down on top of your PV panels you're double-screwed.   Jerry Campbell lives in his Crown for half the year, commuting between Oregon and Mexico, and he's pretty much given up with his wind generator  -  he says another PV panel or two will easily replace it:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gykXY06dct0  He hinges all his panels up;  mine will be hinged to each side of my walkway so one half will raise up to 50 degrees, and the other half will lay down against the roof at 20 degrees below horizontal, just about perfect for summer insolation here.   I plan on also having two or more solar water-heating panels.   If you're serious about self-sufficiency, solar's the way to go.   Maybe you'll be the first Prevost with a full solar set-up!

John