HALP! Getting electrical shocked from bus 110V electricity shocking shock

chessie4905 · November 10, 2013, 06:03:46 AM

After contacting him pertaining to the correct Fluke model non contact pen, I ordered one online. Reasonably priced for the benefit. Thanks for the eye opening info, and welcome to the Bus Conversion psycho site!! This video of his outlines the correct one to purchase:

How-To RV Hot-Skin Testing: Q&A

jmsokol · November 10, 2013, 11:39:21 AM

Quote from: chessie4905 on November 10, 2013, 06:03:46 AM
After contacting him pertaining to the correct Fluke model non contact pen, I ordered one online.

These Non Contact Voltage Testers (NCVTs) are also great for checking outlet polarity as well as looking for RV hot-skin voltage. My favorite is the Fluke VoltAlert, but I also have samples from Amprobe, Klein, Extech and others that work just as well. What you're looking for is one rated for 90 to 1,000 or 60 to 600 volts. Testers with that sensitivity will be able to tell the difference between the hot and neutral sides of a standard 120-volt receptacle, and find a large hot-skin surface down to 40 volts AC or so. Of course, the gold standard is to use a digital meter between a ground rod and the outlet or RV chassis/skin. But that's a test usually only performed for serious troubleshooting or after somebody dies. I believe that the NCVT proximity test is a simple and safe hot-skin and polarity test that anyone should perform every time they plug into an unknown shore power receptacle.

See below for a video on how to use a NCVT to check outlet polarity

Mike Sokol
www.NoShockZone.org

Oonrahnjay · November 10, 2013, 03:08:32 PM

I can never figger out how them little electrictrons run around in things so all this info (with pitchurs - pitchurs are good; I went to a night school so I don't read so good in the day time) is much appreciated! Many thanks, Mike

BH NC USA

jmsokol · November 10, 2013, 03:48:56 PM

Quote from: Oonrahnjay on November 10, 2013, 03:08:32 PM
I can never figger out how them little electrons run around in things...

I taught myself about electricity beginning when I was 12 years old and by the time I turned 16 I was building all sorts of sound and music gear for my bands. I actually think about electrons as running around in pipes and tanks, much like water in a hose. So if you can understand basic plumbing, I can teach you electricity and electronics.

Of course, there's lots of special devices in electronics, so it gets complicated pretty quickly. But just like in your bus, if you can break the most complicated machine down into the many smaller machines it's made of, just about everything is understandable and repairable.

Mike Sokol
www.NoShockZone.org

Cary and Don · November 10, 2013, 04:46:33 PM

Don't assume that your plug is actually wired right. We have recently installed a 50amp reel. It had worked fine at home. Worked fine everywhere in California. We stopped for one night on our last trip and our inverter faulted out. We thought there might be a problem with the pedestal, but we were only there for the night so we disconnected. Stopped for three nights at an RV park and all was well. The next park, it faulted again. "Lost neutral" We got to thinking that maybe there was a short in the plug and took it apart. The ground and neutral wires were reversed. It worked if the neutral and ground had been bonded in the panel box, but not if they were left separate.

Don and Cary

eagle19952 · November 10, 2013, 05:25:57 PM

This statement is confusing....very confusing.

It worked if the neutral and ground had been bonded in the panel box, but not if they were left separate.

Which makes this one even more confusing...

We got to thinking that maybe there was a short in the plug and took it apart. The ground and neutral wires were reversed.....
if this is true, why did it work at all ?

dukegrad98 · November 10, 2013, 06:33:11 PM

Quote from: robertglines1 on January 14, 2013, 08:01:20 AM
I have made grounding mistakes in past for sure because I did not understand! The new coach build --is much better.

Not to worry, Bob -- every ounce of house wire was stripped out of your old chassis, and new wiring installed by a licensed electrician. The thing is just about un-finishable, but at least the electrical system is safe! Haven't touched the project in six or eight months now...

Cheers, John

jmsokol · November 10, 2013, 06:40:24 PM

Quote from: eagle19952 on November 10, 2013, 05:25:57 PM
This statement is confusing....very confusing.

It worked if the neutral and ground had been bonded in the panel box, but not if they were left separate.

Which makes this one even more confusing...

We got to thinking that maybe there was a short in the plug and took it apart. The ground and neutral wires were reversed.....
if this is true, why did it work at all ?

I've seen a number of outlets with the ground and neutral reversed, and while they seemed to work most of the time, there were some pretty strange artifacts introduced. That's because the neutral wire will always have an out of phase voltage drop when compared to the hot wire voltage drop. So if your 120-volts is dropping to 110-volt due to a lot of current draw, half of the drop (5 volts) will be on the hot wire, and the other half of the drop (5 volts) will be on the neutral wire. But while the neutral wire's potential jumps up and down with load, the safety ground wire is never supposed to have any current draw (except in a fault condition) and thus will have no voltage drop. So the safety ground wire should maintain a voltage potential very close to earth voltage. If the ground and neutral wires are reversed, then your voltage protector will see the voltage drop in the wrong wire and assume the neutral or ground wire has opened up.

If you short the ground and neutral wires together in the panel, you're essentially using the ground wire as an extra neutral wire, and their voltage drops will match each other. Since many voltage protectors measure the voltage between the neutral and ground wire (looking for an open neutral in a 240-volt / 50-amp receptacle) then you've bypassed its ability to see an open neutral and protect you from it. Shorting (bonding) the neutral and ground together in a sub-panel is a violation of code and never a good idea.

Mike Sokol

gumpy · November 10, 2013, 07:48:54 PM

Quote from: jmsokol on November 10, 2013, 11:39:21 AM
... Of course, the gold standard is to use a digital meter between a ground rod and the outlet or RV chassis/skin. But that's a test usually only performed for serious troubleshooting or after somebody dies. I believe that the NCVT proximity test is a simple and safe hot-skin and polarity test that anyone should perform every time they plug into an unknown shore power receptacle.

Do you have a video that details the procedure for using a digital meter to test the skin?

Oonrahnjay · November 11, 2013, 04:00:19 AM

Quote from: gumpy on November 10, 2013, 07:48:54 PMDo you have a video that details the procedure for using a digital meter to test the skin?

Hey, Gumpy. There are two videos posted right at the top of this page of this topic (at least, it's the same page of my browser). Do they cover what you were asking for? Best wishes, BH

jmsokol · November 11, 2013, 04:15:14 AM

Quote from: Oonrahnjay on November 11, 2013, 04:00:19 AM
Hey, Gumpy. There are two videos posted right at the top of this page of this topic (at least, it's the same page of my browser). Do they cover what you were asking for? Best wishes, BH

Here's an article I wrote about how to use a digital voltmeter or Non Contact Voltage Tester to check for an RV hot-skin condition.

http://www.noshockzone.org/rv-electrical-safety-part-iv-%E2%80%93-hot-skin/

Mike Sokol
www.NoShockZone.rg

jmsokol · November 11, 2013, 05:59:18 AM

As a side note, I'm fishing around for a grant that would allow me to expand NoShockZone.org into a road tour which would visit campgrounds and RV rallies around the country. All my demonstrations are portable and I could easily present a 90 minute seminar on measuring campground voltages and checking for RV hot-skin conditions. Or I could expand it to become an electricity theory and troubleshooting class with separate AC-DC modules over a several day span.

It's been slow going so far since the test gear manufacturers don't seem to recognize the huge numbers of people in the USA who actually have an RV of some sort. My info from RVIA indicate that 1 out of every 11 families in the US has an RV of some sort. That's a lot of RVs.

If anyone has an idea on where to look for funding, please email me at mike@noshockzone.org with suggestions.

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
www.noshockzone.org

RJ · November 11, 2013, 09:58:04 AM

Quote from: jmsokol on November 11, 2013, 05:59:18 AM
As a side note, I'm fishing around for a grant that would allow me to expand NoShockZone.org into a road tour which would visit campgrounds and RV rallies around the country.

Mike -

If you can, you might try to make it down to Arcadia, FL for the big bus/rv rally that's taking place over New Year's. Bill & Brenda do a good job following the footsteps of Jack & Paula who got this thing rolling. 13th or 14th year now, and they always have tech sessions. Yours would fit right in.

Visit www.arcadiarally.com for details and contact info.

I have some other ideas for you, send me a private message.

FWIW & HTH. . .

jmsokol · December 16, 2013, 01:35:30 PM

Just a heads-up. I recently expanded one of my answers on this thread into a full article for RV Education 101 Magazine where I discuss both low-current and high-current hot skin conditions and what causes each of them.

See http://www.rvuniversity.com/article.php/2013113015512298 for that issue.

Keep up the good work on spreading the word about electrical safety for your bus conversions. And NEVER accept getting a shock from any vehicle or appliance as normal. It's not safe and needs to be corrected immediately.

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
www.noshockzone.org