A really scary Scenicruiser

[pd4501-771]

Jim

Please let us know if you get that article uploaded somewhere. I would like to check it out. However, the Raymond Loewy Foundation just called http://www.raymondloewyfoundation.com/en/lucky-strike-designer-award.html and they requested that we stop calling this a Scenicruiser ! Two words come to mind Yuck and why ! This is like converting the Statue of Liberty to a Starbucks, or an AC Cobra to a 73 Pinto. Just because you can do something, does not mean you should. I know it's his "bus", and this is America, and he can do with it what he wants, and it's great "craftmenship", but what's the point?

Just my opinion.

[rv_safetyman]

Tom, I too have some very mixed emotions about taking an iconic bus and changing it completely.  Indeed, I have faced this with some cars I have built where folks say that I destroyed them.  The fact that most of my old cars were in the wrecking yard and facing shredding, does not seem to matter to them

If this conversion was based on a very trashed out Scenicruiser, it might not be so bad.  However, the article suggests that is not the case.

It will be a day or two before I scan it.  I will email you the file.

Jim

[John316]

I am with Jim, on this. The title probably still says a Scenicruiser. Why wouldn't it be one now? I do hope I am not stepping into a fire ant hill here....but I might as well say it. Go ahead and flame then .

I am most impressed when somebody really updates and changes something so old, like Bob did. He made it look incredible, and you can tell he spent MANY hours on it. It is still a bus and a Scenic. I have no issues with it at all. In fact, I think it looks great. If someone restores the original, kudos to them. I have seen some stunning restorations/conversions. But I sure don't have a problem is somebody wants to update an old one also.

FWIW YMMV

John

[Seayfam]

I would have to agree with you.
I think it is an outstanding job and is very unique. These old buses don't hold any collector value of any sort, so why not make it your own? As a matter of fact, I think there is a much larger market for traditional looking RV's. It just might be worth more? I have a very rare bus, it is one of only 100 ever build. If it was totally stock, would it be worth more? I don't believe so, But I prefer it looking more original than all changed up. But that is just my preference. Now on the other hand, if it was a classic car, you bet it would be 100% stock.

That is a really nice conversion, I would never have guessed it was once a scenic.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Xparent Green Tapatalk 2

[pd4501-771]

Topic Summary
Posted on: Today at 10:03:03 AMPosted by: Seayfam 
Insert Quote These old buses don't hold any collector value of any sort, so why not make it your own? As a matter of fact, I think there is a much larger market for traditional looking RV's. It just might be worth more? I have a very rare bus, it is one of only 100 ever build. If it was totally stock, would it be worth more?

I'm not going to get into a disscussion about converting a bus or not. This is obviously not the place to have that discussion. If it were not for conversions most old coaches would no longer be around. I completely understand the desire to convert a bus. I just feel that changing the look of any vehicle to the point that it is no long recognizable as the original vehicle seems strange to me. (just my opinion) Especially one with PERFECT desin qualities, like the 4501 ! (I might be just a tad bit bias !) No offense, but your comments about antique bus values seem to be very old fashioned attitudes in my opinion. Interest in certain original condition coaches is growing. Younger collectors are emerging. Europeans have imported 10 Scenicruisers over the last decade. Between paying for the overseas shipping, and paying good prices for buses, they are making a significant investment. Prices in the U.S. are steadily increasing on antiques as well. I only wish I had bought up More seated buses 15 years ago, insteasd of investing in my 401K !  What would a restored MC-6 in restored condition bring? Not sure, but I bet you might be surprised.

Regards, Tom 

[Jeremy]

This is the same argument that hot rodders have had with classic car buffs for decades - and Seayfam is correct, it simply comes down to the original market value of the vehicle being modified - until the rarity of that vehicle reaches a point where only 'collectors' can afford to buy one (and then probably not use it), it remains available for enthusiast owners buy, run, update, modify and generally do what they want with. And that's a good thing in my opinion - I'd rather have ingenuity over originality any time. It may be that the value of Scenicruisers will eventually reach the point where they become worth buying and restoring to original condition simply for the pleasure of owing something that few other people possess - but until then they'd just rot away in junkyards if it wasn't for people with the enthusiasm and energy to convert them into something that's actually useful (ie., a motorhome), rather than keeping them as mere over-sized ornaments.

Jeremy

PS. If you want to get really upset about old vehicles being 'modified' then watch a few 'Pre '68' banger racing videos on Youtube. Those must really annoy the classic car guys

[Seayfam]

Tom, There was no offence taken;)
I have only been into buses for 5 years, so I have very little knowledge as to the collector value as you would or many others here. All the information I have gathered over the last several years has been on the net. I have seen the scenic and even three of the MC-6's in very restorable condition sell for pennies. I would think that they would be worth a quite a bit more to a collector in this condition than converted. This is the only reason I believe there is very little collector value. (Just my net research)

I am completely with you, I don't personally care for chopping anything up to the point it is unrecognizable. I really like the scenic and many other older buses in as close to original condition as possible. I really like the Red Rocket, it still resembles the original bus with some cool touches.

I truly hope you are correct about the old buses gaining some interest! I think they are a really big part of American history and they should be collectible.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Xparent Green Tapatalk 2

[pd4501-771]

The only Scenic you have seen lately "sell for pennies" were non-running derilect homemade conversions or shells. Good original (complete) buses bring really good cash. I keep insanely detailed records about Scenic sales, and price trends. The only problem is there are only about 20 fully seated 4501s that survive in that condition. That counts already restored, and unrestored examples. (about 230 total remain on earth in some varying conditions) The breaking point (on Scenics, because that is what I pay very close attention) is if it still has the original restroom, overhead parcel racks, and seats or not. If these items are missing it makes it very difficult to restore to total original, as these items are getting increasely hard to locate. If these items are gone, then she is pretty much going to be a conversion from there forward. This probably applies to most antique coaches. If all, or some of these items are intact, then you have a valueble restorable vehicle. I doubt many know the expense that some (including myself) are going to restore antique coaches. We currently have all the curved glass (all 19 pieces it takes to do a 4501) reproduced, both original interior seat cloth is now available, etc. I know of about a dozen owners/museums that are doing first rate restorations of 4501s. To say original coaches have little value is (in my opinion) far from correct. Anybody remember what set the record for sales at Barrett-Jackson? A Futureliner. That's a bus right? I understand that is one of ten, ultra rare, rare occasion, etc. But, we never know where trends are headed in 50-100 years right? 

Wow, "mere oversized ornaments".... I kinda thought we were preserving history. Jeremy I might suggest you get hold of a copy of Fred Rayman & myself's Scenicruiser book that is do out in March 2013. I think you may be very surprised about what you learn about the antique bus hobby in the U.S.

Getting back to my earlier comments, I think most of us agree that customs are fine, but if there is no evidence what-so-ever of the vehicle you started with, then you just as well use something much newer, that is in better condition, and parts are more readily available. Makes sense?

[Jeremy]

Wow, "mere oversized ornaments".... I kinda thought we were preserving history. Jeremy I might suggest you get hold of a copy of Fred Rayman & myself's Scenicruiser book that is do out in March 2013. I think you may be very surprised about what you learn about the antique bus hobby in the U.S.

I wasn't meaning to be disrespectful to the restorers and originality-fanatics - just making the point that a bus which is actually being used - and perhaps even providing someone with a home - is probably enjoying a more fulfilling life than one that's owned by a collector and does nothing but sit in an air-conditioned shed somewhere. I rather think that 'mere oversized ornament' is a good description of the latter sort - but just my opinion.

In reality I think we all agree that - in the majority of cases and at the present point in time - the likely alternative to an old bus being bought and modified by an enthusiast is that it will instead slowly rust away until it's beyond saving by anyone. But not if it's still got those parcel racks I guess.

I do also agree that turning a Scenicruiser into that purple Class A look-a-like is a odd thing to do - but perhaps at the time it was done it wasn't so odd. Perspectives on such things changes greatly over time - there's countless examples of valuable cars (early Corvettes spring to mind) which were once cheap and plentiful, and thus very frequently re-bodied, modified, updated, and generally ruined for posterity.

--

The classic & vintage bus scene is actually very big in the UK incidentally - I've mentioned before that there are several big-selling glossy magazine titles here covering just that hobby (and none at all covering conversions of any sort). The two titles shown below are probably the biggest of their type (and I have lots of issues of both in stock if anyone is interested...)


Jeremy

[pd4501-771]

Jeremy

I agree that any old bus is most always better off being utilized in some manner (restored, converted, etc.) Rather than rusting away with neglect. However, if a coach is altered to the point where it is no longer recoginizable to anyone (but the owner) than what's the difference if it is still around. It's only a plus in a recycling raw materails stand-point. On the other hand, is this not the same result, if we melted down an antique bus, and recycled the metals into a new Kia or Nissian? We may have to agree to disagree about the limit of practical alterations to a vehicle.

Not all antique buses are all in some muesum somewhere. I have four seated coaches. I do have a 40 year old tin barn (I wish it was insulated, or heated) but air conditioning is down-right a dream ! My barn was torn down by yours truely, moved 70 miles, and re-constructed in my yard by me. You see, there are lots of private little guys like me enjoying the hobby. The none-elite attitudes held by most bus (converted or otherwise) is exactly what drew me away from the national muscle car show world 15 years ago. We all are limited as to how much we can use our coaches (converted or otherwise), unless one lives full time in a bus. Both by time available, and fuel money! Just keep in mind, that just because a bus still has all the seats remaining does not mean it is not used on a regular basis. Regards, Tom

[Boomer]

I tend to agree with Tom (naturally, we are vintage busnuts).  That being said, when I aquired my Silverside it had already had the 40 year old ragged out shade tree conversion done to it, so without seats and racks and floor, it was hopeless to do a full restoration.  So I did a half restoration, brought the exterior back to darn near original, and converted the interior and systems to modern with as many upgrades hidden as possible to make it look authentic on the outside.  It's almost criminal what some guys do to a vintage bus.

[Len Silva]

I agree, I would rather see it in more original condition.  The same is true for cars.  I was once into hot rods and I screwed up my share of nice old cars.  Now, I would rather have a restoration than a rod.  There are damn few '32 Fords that didn't get all chopped up.

[seaton@mta]

Sorry to disagree with some of you, but some old buses do maintain values higher than scrap.  I personally know of a pair of 1960s GM new look suburbans (still seated) that sold for about $10,000 apiece and I have seen restored 1950s era transit's that changed hands for double that. 

Personally, I favor converted coaches that remain stock on the outside, but I am not so narrow-minded that i don't understand someone's desire to alter a design to meet their own needs.  I am just happy that the bus--any vintage bus--has been saved from the scrapper and is still on the road, or even sitting in someone's backyard awaiting conversion.

-- Seaton