Tomc Luvrbus and the collective :) cummins power question

[Eric]

Ok so I'm taking this this weekend and fixing the bus.. Ripping out the rot and going to town... I've been researching power from the cummins and I see I can pump 400hp out of this monster pretty darn cheap...but the Trans can't do it I remember the mention of a 2000 series Trans could do the job.. I'm attacking this head on folks with 9/1/12 being shakedown....the checkbooks open and I have a whole Lotta work to do.. Now the clincher: I want a mechanical Trans not electronic, does such a beast exist? Can I beef up this one?

1991 Ward Senator
Crane Carrier chassis
5.9 w/AT545

1 obsessed driver and passenger with too much time on our hands

Have fun !

Eric

[Oonrahnjay]

     Eric, I've been told that the simple addition of a "throttle" position transducer makes the "World" transmissions (6-speed, lockup, double overdrive) work just fine with a mechanical engine.  That's the way that I think I'll go -- it would be wonderful to have the benefits of that transmission.

[belfert]

The 5.9 is used in Dodge pickups.  A lot of pickup guys bomb their engines, but you have to be sure to get a pyro gauge if you do this.  The mechanical 5.9 takes a bit more work to bomb than the electronic version.  With the electronic version one can get a little electronic box that increases the power output of the engine.  You still need to do things like replace the exhaust with a free flowing version.

[luvrbus]

Leave it alone would be my answer good little engines till you start playing with the hp the torque doesn't go up that much as been told to me over the years hp is a number torque you feel.

I have owned the 5.9 in Case equipment since 1984 when they first were born they were 160 hp 400 lbs of torque @ 1600 rpm never many problems just fuel pumps

[azdieselman]

You're gonna kill that 5.9 if you run it at that rating. Perhaps you should consider it's bigger brother the "C" series. You'll already be at 350 HP, That can easily be bumped up without melting it down. You might find an engine/trans combo. An MT would work with either engine.

[Eric]

Well dang if that doesn't rain on my parade! So is there any bump ups I can safely do? I was going to add an intercooler anyhow. It goes down the road great I just want to step on the pedal a bit more in mountains and push a bit more soot..And we're towing our wagon as well..if it can't be done it can't be done...but I was really hoping lol


Have fun !

Eric

[HB of CJ]

Or...how about just find the biggest in line 6 cylinder diesel engine and tranny that will physically fit into the bus?  Lots of choices from DD, Cat, Cummins, etc..  Might also be cheaper in the long run.  FWIW....we found that a DD 8V92TI and a RTO 14510 tranny will actually fit into a late 1960s Ford F600 shorty 6 window school bus.  You might be amazed to find out what will physically fit into your Bus Conversion project.  HB of CJ (old coot) (you could do burnouts)

[opus]

I say leave it alone as well.  Even if you went to the C series, you'd need a 643 transmission, if you dont want electronic.  I wouldnt do electronic for anything personally.  The 643 is only good for 250hp though, which is what mine is.  I guess I dont see the big thrill with hp and I've driven a lot of big hp.

[azdieselman]

The upside to the MT would be the lockup converter. You could better manage the increased engine heat from a moderate power boost. His planned use of a CAC will definitely help. The shift points can be set to keep the engine just above peak torque and improve the drivability. I think that 400HP is unreasonable for this type of application.

[TomC]

Mechanically injected 5.9 liter can and will go up to 800hp-but not suitable for bus service.  The electronically controlled 6.7 liter has an RV rating of 360hp and 800lb/ft torque-of which you'd have to run the 3000 series Allison.  The 2000 series is good up to 660lb/ft torque which would be around the 300hp range for the 6.7 liter.

The mechanical choices for the 5.9 liter, would put the maximum output of the engine around 250hp and 660lb/ft torque.  The MT643 4spd Allison has a lockup torque converter, but is only a 4spd with 4th being direct-no overdrive.  Both the 2000 and 3000 series World Allison can be used with a mechanically controlled engine with a throttle position modulator.  With the world transmission having a .75 and .65 overdrive, I would seriously consider those transmissions.

If you want a mechanical engine, I'd use the Cummins 8.3C model, or L10 for more power.  Even the L10 was only rated to 330hp and 930lb/ft torque.  When you go electronic, the horsepower ratings really go up.

I used a HT740 because the 4000 series transmission would have been twice the money to install-and with my 3.55 gearing don't really need overdrive.

Good Luck, TomC

[Oonrahnjay]

(snip) If you want a mechanical engine, I'd use the Cummins 8.3C model, or L10 for more power. 

    Tom, is the Cummins 8.3C (mechanical) engine different in pusher and front-engine use?  (I.e., if I'm looking to buy an engine, do I have to specify a "pusher" engine?)  Thanks,  BH

[luvrbus]

Both the same Bruce but try and find a American made if you go with 8.3 IMO the C9 Cat is the better engine

[Oonrahnjay]

Both the same Bruce but try and find a American made if you go with 8.3 IMO the C9 Cat is the better engine 

     Thanks, that's good to know.  I've had a lot of people recommend the 8.3 and the C9, it looks as if the C9 will be more plentiful around here (most of the Thomas schoolies and transits were "anything but" Cummins and most of the school districts and local transit agencies bought Thomas buses).  Also, is there a "pusher" rear axle? 

     I ask because it looks as is my best way forward is to remove my current engine/transmission/axle and graft in a N American pusher powertrain.  (Briefly, the reasons for this is that the current engine isn't up to the job any more, the transmission is limited on the torque/hp it will carry, and the rear axle is a "compound" axle that's a 5.3 ratio and a design that reverses the drive direction.  Also, there are no gearing options for the current axle, and it is bulky and heavy.  So, there's basically no way to upgrade any part of the system without replacing it all.)

    I'm still looking at possibilities and options, that's why I'm asking.   Thanks,  BH

[TomC]

While the Cat C9 is a great engine (if older then 2007), it is only an electronic engine up to 350hp and 1050lb/ft torque.  It wasn't used anywhere as much as the Cummins engines, and just because it is a Caterpillar-will cost more to work on.

Mechanical engines that are available-small block-Cummins 5.9B, International 7.3liter, International 360.  Medium block-Cummins 8.3C; Caterpillar 3116 (like a 4 stroke version of the 6-71-basically the same type of injection), 3208 (which can be a good engine if it is steel sleeved with turbo); International DTA466 (great engine). Big block engines-Cummins L10, NTC855, VTA903 (which is still being made for Bradley tank), Caterpillar 3306, 3406, 1693 (giant obsolete engine).

[luvrbus]

Now Tom the C9 was used in a lot of Cat equipment with different hp setting and other manufactures of equipment 20,000 to 25,000 hrs on mine trouble free in mud,water,dirt,flyash you name it and depending on the application you could go over 350 hp I had some loaders Cat turn up the C9 to 425 hp fwiw

Cummins could never make in the equipment world as hard they tried it takes a real man for that world l I had a 8.3 that gave me so much grief I had Bomag replace it with 6v92