Rivets and patches?

[John Z]

I have quite a few missing rivets on my 04. I would like to fill those holes with a rivet that looks similar to the original. Any names of product or suppliers that you have found would be appreciated. Also, what tools were required and what was the cost of that tool?

There are also a couple dozen holes where prior owners have had different items mounted at one time or another. Other than filling these holes with a rivet, have any of you had any luck filling these holes? Wondering if something like JB Weld would blend in well after filling and sanding smooth.

As always, thanks for any help.

[4104GA]

 :Check with your local airport maintence dept for a rivet replacent.  Lot cheaper than buying the tools.  HTH

[Stan]

The original riviets are called buck riivets and are set with an air hammer on the outside and a bucking bar on the inside. This type of rivet is readily available but you can't use them if the bus is finished on the inside.

There are several types of blind rivets that are put in from the outside. The most common are a 'POP' type rivet which is pulled with a cheap tool. You can buy umbrella caps that drive into the hollow rivet and give the appearance of a buck rivet.  If you use this method a reasonable quality tool is under $30.00 and the combination of rivet and cap will be about ten cents.

[John Z]

4104 and Stan, thanks for the good info. You guys have given me a couple good ways to consider. For the most part, the interior will prevent getting to the inside of the rivet, so who knows, maybe i will wind up using both types eventually.

[brojcol]

I have used the mushroom caps Stan was talking about.  You can order them from http://busfixx.tripod.com/busservice/
But, tell them you want "beauty caps" so they will know what you are talking about.  They are not cheap either.  Easy to use.  You just tap them into the hole left in the rivet.  They look great. 

If you are just going to fill holes, give them a try, I recommend them.

[John Z]

Thanks for the link for the beauty caps, i will get in touch with them.

I still would like to find a method for just patching a hole without a rivet. Some of the prior owners really went wild hanging flag holders, porch lights, plaques etc all over the bus. I would just like to fill these holes. Some of them will be painted over, and some are in an area where it will be left bare aluminum. If anyone has attempted this, i would like to hear what worked and what didn't. Thanks again!

[Stan]

John Z: Your aluminum skin is anodized and there is no way to patch that and keep the original finish. If you are going to paint the aluminum it is just like any automotive body work. You can dimple the holes and fill with body filler, prime and paint. If you want to make the bus look like new then you have to re-skin the entire bus (think of covering it with $10.00 bills).

[Jeremy]

There is a product in the UK (possibly the US too) called Lumiweld, which is for 'amateur' welding of aluminium (ie. non-structural patching work done with a blow-torch rather than a welding set). Land Rover enthusiasts use it for repairs to their bodywork for instance. It would be ideal for filling your holes. Filling holes with bodyfiller is not an ideal long-term solution, as the bodyfiller is likely to fall off again eventually unless you do the job 'properly', which is not possible if you cannot access the back of the panel. Paint and filler does not stick to aluminium (or at least oxidised aluminium, which all aluminium exposed to air is) nearly as well as to steel, so you need to use the right techniques and materials (usually etch prime first, then use filler on top of the primer). Having said that however, the fact that your aluminium is anodised might actually overcome many of the usual problems associated in coating aluminium - I would take some advice on that.

As for the final finish, if you like the original unpoilished look of your panels, I would etch prime everything, do your various bits of bodywork, then spray paint it back to the orginal colour. If you go to your local automotive paint supplier you will find all sorts of 'aluminium' colours and shades available, used for, amongst other things, refurbishing alloy wheels. There is no reason why with a bit of work and the right materials your existing panels can look as good or better than they did when they left the factory.

Jeremy

[Dallas]

Beware the beauty caps:

I replaced over 2000 pop style rivets on a 1973 Newell coach last spring that had been put in as replacements for the original bucked rivets. Each one had been covered with a beauty cap.
Corroision and salt had worked their way down into the hole in the rivet and pushed the beauty cap part way out on some and others were completely gone.

What I used in place of the caps was a 2 part epoxy of the same shade as the rivet I replaced. I then used a dremel tool to sand off the excess and polish up the remaining epoxy. Although you could tell the difference if you were closer than 2 feet, any farther back and the rivet looked like a bucked rivet.

Good Luck, and I hope this Helps,

Dallas

[Stan]

Jeremy: They must use a different system in England than in North America. All bus manufacturers in North America either painted or else anodized (polished first or unpolished) alumiinum skin.  The anodized aluminum made an easy care surface and many of the fifty year old buses still look the  same as when they were made. The anodized finish is a hard durable surface that requires nothing but washing.

As I said in the previous post there is no way to repair an anodized panel. Anything you do to it is a very obvious repair. John Z is concerned with the appearance and isn't looking for welds in the middle of his panels.

As to welding holes in a panel of a finished bus, make sure the fire insurance is paid before you start. Any competent body man, and most amateur body men can repair with body filler and it stays there for the life of the vehicle but you can't just fill a hole without first creating a depression around it to provide some area for the filler to bond to.  The aluminum will have minimum time to oxidize between the time you sand and the time you apply the filler. You have to scuff sand any material before you apply body filler in order to get a bond.

Dallas: The rivet catalogues call for a specifiic cap to fit a specific rivet (matched pair) which increases the shear strength of the hollow rivet  and makes a pretty tight plug in the hole. This may have nothing to do with the failure on the Newell but if I was changing 2000 rivets, I would use shave head rivets which look identical to a buck rivet but are more expensive than buck or pop rivets.

[Dallas]

Stan,
I would have used shaved head rivets also, and in fact ordered them... twice..... and got the wrong ones each time. I now have 4000 shave rivets in bags in one of my bays.

Due to time constraints, I was forced to use what was available locally. Which meant Pop style rivets. Not my favorite idea, but the epoxy worked well, and looked good too. I wonder if it helped with the structural integrity of the rivets?

[Jeremy]

Jeremy: They must use a different system in England than in North America. All bus manufacturers in North America either painted or else anodized (polished first or unpolished) alumiinum skin.  The anodized aluminum made an easy care surface and many of the fifty year old buses still look the  same as when they were made. The anodized finish is a hard durable surface that requires nothing but washing.

Stan:

Trust me, Anodising is not unique to America. Many of us uneducated foreigners us it too!

quote author=Stan link=topic=2868.msg25800#msg25800 date=1167517921]
As I said in the previous post there is no way to repair an anodized panel. Anything you do to it is a very obvious repair. John Z is concerned with the appearance and isn't looking for welds in the middle of his panels.

As to welding holes in a panel of a finished bus, make sure the fire insurance is paid before you start. Any competent body man, and most amateur body men can repair with body filler and it stays there for the life of the vehicle but you can't just fill a hole without first creating a depression around it to provide some area for the filler to bond to.  The aluminum will have minimum time to oxidize between the time you sand and the time you apply the filler. You have to scuff sand any material before you apply body filler in order to get a bond.

If you re-read my post you will see that I address how to repair an aluminium panel and get a good finish

I have many years experience doing bodywork on aluminium-bodied vehicles, but perhaps more importantly have also been trained in 'best practice' too. It's true that dealing with aluminium car bodies is more problamatic than panels on commerical vehicles, and it's also true that many people get away with treating aluminium as if it were steel. My original post was not intended to discredit anyone else's advice, but just to say what I would do if it were my own bus. Mind you, if it were my bus I would probably be fitting smooth skins to cover all those horrible rivets!

Jeremy