Engine transplants, an FAQ needed?

[Paladin]

There have been a number of threads lately about engine replacement ideas or suggestions. This has always been a hot topic over the years and some good factual info has been put out there but also some very bad personal opinions too.
Many threads seem to be relating to MCI coaches of which I benefit since it's always been in the back of my mind though I'm sure that there are a number of other makes and models which have benefited from a power plant change.

I wonder if someone or someone's who know might be interested in authoring an F.A.Q on the topic of what various engines or at variations on our existing engines make good or interesting upgrades or replacements when one gives out or someone just wants more power?

What options are out there, what is involved, what are the costs and fuel tradeoffs if any and what are the potential benefits?

I for one think it would be interesting to see what a CAT might do or a Cummins or a Series 60 in my 8 or even a fresh 8-71T for mine! I've wondered which would make the best and easiest changeover. Like everyone else I wondered what other mods must be done to accommodate a change. Cradle modifications? Wiring harnesses? Adapters? Radiators? Turbos? Trans? How to properly add a turbo to a non turbo engine with minimal internal engine changes?

Brian Diehl's conversion to an ISM was fascinating and I'm sure it would be helpful if we had more similar stories.

Ideas?

[lostagain]

Lots in the archives of both bus boards.

Also, Jim Shepperd (RVsafetyman) wrote a good article on the subject in BCM not too long ago.

JC

[Paladin]

I didn't see Jim's article, probably one of the mags I didn't get. My thought is that instead of lot's in archives, a new fresh look and in one place. I have yet to see anything very complete hence the F.A.Q.

[lostagain]

There are as many ways to do an engine swap as there are mechanics with ideas. Only imagination, talent, time, and money are limiting factors.

People have done things that others said would not be possible. Such as lengthening and widening buses to accommodate engines that would've been too large and heavy in the first place.

It is like building custom motorcycles: anything goes.

JC

[HB of CJ]

Way back in 1975 or soss, we put 353 and 453 Detroits into 1963 Ford Pickups and Flatbeds.  Actually an easy swap and a few had Jake Brakes.  Slow, but fun to drive and play with.  One rich guy put a built 453TI into a Chevy Corvette Stingray.  Yep!  Anything is possible.

As a further more crazy example,  I wanted to put a Detroit 6-110TI into a Crown Supercoach ex school bus-to-be-motorcoach.  Possible but not practical.  Factory mills were pancake small and big cam Cummins and pancake Detroit 671's.  HB of CJ (old coot)

[mikelutestanski]

Hello:    I believe the archives are the best source of information. Patience and searching will yield lots of info. WE had many a session about 5 years ago.
  Regards  and happy bussing   mike

[luvrbus]

You can install just about any engine in a T drive I hear it everyday you cannot install anything but the Cummins in a MCI 8 or 9  it's BS some body forgot to tell Wilmer Goss he had Pedco  (Virgil Cooley) install a series 60 in his 8 back in about 1995 + or - on the dates used the same cooling system

I never knew what happen to Wilmer or the bus over the years that was a sharp MCI 8

[Paladin]

Regarding the archives, so the consensus seems to be no more new information is ever needed. ALL info ever needed is in archives already with nothing new to add. No new books to add to the library.
I strongly disagree and think that due to the ever changing list of members, new ideas and new technology the archives are a wonderful place to begin but then we need fresh info and new ideas as well as better ways to document them than random posts. Some of the ideas of doing things that is in the archives is also just outdated.

I'm constantly impressed by the new ways of doing old things or just plain new ways of doing new things that I see here and that's what I'm after....after I read the archives which I do and I also save threads that I particularly like in pdf format. I think it's too easy to put people off with simple statements such as "look in the archives." yet every time that I see one of the top 50 questions (we all know what they are) asked I see an interesting new response or two by new members etc. Someone forgot to just read the archives instead of asking for new info.

Thanks for the helpful input from those who care to think about it. It's minds that think that anything can be  still done if you are willing to try and new ideas are out there (regardless of the archive) if you only ask, which is what I was doing that makes keeps this forum from getting stale.
I like to hear from people who say things like, "I know so and so did it this way (and it's in the archives) but here is how I approached it last month and haven't said a word yet because I'm not done yet"  Or, This is how I'd like to try it, what do you think?

HB, I loved your response and the one luvrbus gave was also helpful partially because they both didn't state the obvious but took a minute to type something interesting and at least somewhat helpful.

I'll head back to the archives now and see what new stuff there is to see......repeat the mantra, it's in the archives, it's in the archives, it's in the archives.......I hear angels sing when I say the revered word "archives".

[wg4t50]

When you start modifying the engine & drive setup in a bus, from my experience, there is no book on how to do it step by step like a Heath Kit,  If you have no clue, find someone who is a stand up thinker, give him some time and he will create what you want.  Most likely more money than you had in mind.  In that case stick with the standard setup and smile.
Having done multiple engine changes in the MCI7 plus a model 1 eagle with the DD 60 series with HT740 trans.
Given a welder, grinder, drill, torch, metal stock, you can make anything,  of course a lathe and a mill are nice too.  Plus a fork lift.
Lots of fun playing and everyone has opiniions, so you gotta do what your comfy with.
Dave

[Len Silva]

Somewhere in South Jersey, back in the late sixties, I saw a sign I have never forgotten.

WILLIS MACHINE AND FABRICATION

WE ADAPT ANYTHING TO ANYTHING

That's the guy you need.

[mikelutestanski]

Hello:  Have you looked at RVsafetymans website. He authored BCM  articles and has many pictures of other engine swaps including his own project. My bus was in last mays BCM and I discussed the project. Several of us have done engine swap seminars at Jacks rallies. 
       What is your real purpose here. If you want to do an engine swap you need to have a purpose. When you decide what the reason is then you will develop and find information to see if your goals are achievable. Only then will you find the inner drive to complete the project.
     Or someone will tell you that you can't do it; and that simple statement will generate this response.  Yes I can.
  My purpose was to achieve better fuel mileage and get rid of a leaky detroit (the guy that rebuilt it said it would never leak again;  he lied). I also had money constraints so I figured out that if I wanted to do this at reasonable cost I needed to buy a complete transit bus with the engine, transmission, computers, and wiring installed and running.  Then I could figure out how it worked; remove what I needed , and put it in my bus.  If it worked before I removed it then I should be able to make it work again.  Lots of documentation and pictures to help remember how things were.  I even built a test stand and ran the engine and transmission before installing it in the bus. I had to buy an engine separately because the original engine dropped a valve on the way home. OMG how can I ever get that 6 cylinder engine where an 8V was. (its 6 inches longer)!!!     
    It really helps to have a shop and all the tools necessary to fabricate required assemblies.  IE  motor mounts, frames, brackets, and even  jigs (fixtures) to position something. In my case I built several carts with steel wheels to slide the engine in and out whilst fabricating  the motor framework. The engine went in and out at least 200 times..  Each problem you encounter will require a solution. For example how do you position your engine to achieve the right driveline angle with respect to the rear end. How does one measure the angle? When you figure that out you can fabricate the motor mounts. Oh the front pulley has to be located (MCI bus) properly so the belt runs true to the fan gearbox.
     One final note. What skills are required to perform the work?   The responsibility is a big one because as pilots the driver is the first one to arrive on the scene whatever it may be.
    You probably won't agree but until you make some decisions the board cant help because no one knows exactly what is required for your application yet.  Once you decide everyone will have an opinion.
       
        Regards  and happy bussing   mike

[buswarrior]

In summary, if you have to ask how to swap in an unorthodox drive train...

This might be one of those topics in which it might be best to never mind?


As for archives and their value, the two boards, here at BCM and over at BNO, have had all of the world of busnuttery caught up for awhile now.

Someone far smarter than I has already pointed out that pretty much everything we know, as a group, has already been typed, and is available in the archives.

There isn't much of anything old that is new, there's only new that is new, or repeated stuff that we can't find where it was written already.

Let's pause and offer thanks for the benevolence of our two hosts for storing it all and keeping it available!

The flurry of catching up a century of bus automotive evolution and knowledge onto the newly arrived internet has abated.

The archive on BCM goes back to the last switch of software at the end of March 2006. Note that the "Bus Topics" section alone is now 1000 pages deep in threads, knowledge, freely shared.

The archive at BNO goes back to December of 2000. And it was the busier of the two boards back in the day.

All of us know when it was we joined the internet, got that first dial-up connection... BCM and BNO have been here in their earlier forms even before these saved archives, pretty much right from the popular beginning of public use of the internet.

The speed of the knowledge posted on the boards has slowed to match the speed of the world now.

It might be a reminder to us all to be more thoughtful as to the titles we give threads, in order that the content will be more suitably searched by those who follow us?

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[TomC]

One consideration that has to be made is heating the engine up.  If you have an older mechanically controlled 4 stroke engine, they worked best with multiple speed transmissions (like a 9 or 10spd) to keep the rpms up and the exhaust temps down.  If you swap an electronically controlled engine, no worries-the electronics will take care of overheating problems.  It will be interesting to see how my mechanically controlled Cat 3406B with jacket water aftercooling will do with just a 4spd Allison HT740 transmission.  Good Luck, TomC

[mikelutestanski]

Hello
   MCI. Installed 3406 engines in 4mci 7 combo buses. The only one I know of that is still in service is Allen Tappendens. He is aCanadian from Edmonton who converted his . Two of the buses crashed during service in Arizona and the third is a mystery. Allen's bus was featured in BCM in the early 90s.That is how I met him. 
     I believe they were equipped with 740s and a side mount radiator.
Regards and happy bussin.  Mike
   

[luvrbus]

The problem I see with transplants people over engineer the things, that is what I like about Sonnie Gray he keeps it simple and he can install a elephant in a nat's @$#

good luck