New Allison 10 speed

[Lin]

Roy,

My point is not that anyone would kick it out of bed, but that it really is too pricey a professional for our modest needs.  I think you would probably get off a lot cheaper picking up a pretty turbo 6v92.

[wg4t50]

I am hoping this new 10 speed Allison will have the retarder as an option, I presently have the 4000R, and do love that retarder.  ?

[TomC]

It's too early to tell if the TC-10 will have an output retarder.  I know that both the Detroit DD and Cummins new version of the ISX have Jake brakes built in as standard.  And since the new versions are powered by dedicated lobes on the overhead camshaft, the Jakes are both powerful and quiet.  I recently took a DD15 in a Cascadia rated at its' lowest power setting of 455hp @ 1,550lb/ft torque with a 10spd on a drive at 80,000lbs.  Went over the Kellogg hill in Pomona, Ca-which is about a 5% grade, and the Jakes held the load without any brake application.  The power was pretty effortless also.  These new trucks ride so well, are so quiet-I wish some of the new drivers could have driven my first Diesel truck-which was a cabover International (1972 model) with a screaming 6-71N in it with a 10spd.  I wore ear plugs and wished for a kidney belt at times.  Good Luck, TomC

[artvonne]

  Time and technology. This Airline Pilot who flew heavy metal for NWA, bought a little Cessna 150 out east, and flew it back to Minnesota. His biggest comment was how hard it was to fly IFR, having become so used to just sitting and back pushing a few buttons, and letting the computer fly the plane. He admitted the little analog plane showed him he had become quite rusty in his skills, and questioned why that kind of training wasn't ongoing, to keep guys up to standard.   

  Its the same in motor racing, that cars have become so sophisticated, were likely on the brink of being able to have the car drive itself, with the "pilot", sitting over at the pits driving it like a video game from a console.

  Now it looks like it could come to pass in ground transport. And it would be welcomed by the sensory dulled masses......who needs a driver, when a computer can do the job better, faster, and more efficiently. With auto shift and auto brake, and every thing's going auto park, its only a short way to auto steer. Set location, set destination, and bada bing, bada boom.

[CrabbyMilton]

It would be hard to imagine vehicles completely without drivers but you certainly cannot rule that out either. There was a time that you had to have people operating elevators. I know I may get blasted by the stick shift fans but the idea of automatic transmission is not to offend people who love stick shift. The idea to is get the bus from point A to point B and auto has proven itself many times over. Imagine transit and skooolies and fire trucks with stick nowadays? I know as a firetruck nut that some people don't like the newer fire apparatus. I politely tell them that they never built them so people like us have something to admire many decades form now and that the new features were born out of safety and improving overall operations of the rig. But some say they don't care they just wish things were the way they were many years ago. Steam vs. diesel in the rail commnunity is another example.

[RoyJ]

At some point, we'll al have to admit that driving was a craft back then because we had no choice - the technologies available back then dictated driving to be craftsman like.

But driving was never MEANT to be a craft; rather, simply a method of providing transportation. So, if a computer controlled transmission can shift faster, smoother, and last longer (compared to rookies with a stick), then why not?

99% of Greyhound riders do not care how "crafted" the driver is as long as they get there safely and relatively comfortably.

[prevosman]

Without a doubt technology has improved our efficiencies, probably improved the service life of engines, transmissions and associated systems, but there has been a tradeoff.

The impact is very clear in aviation. The old barnstormers were pilots in the truest sense of the word. Today's pilots are becoming systems managers and they lack the fundamental skills to take over when something goes wrong. It is pretty easy to cite some recent crashes attributed to pilots who lacked basic skills even though they were responsible for a plane load of people.

We are seeing the same of drivers. Few on this forum will debate how disconnected other drivers are on the highway. From our higher vantage point driving the coach we see all manner of ways motorists while away the time when they should be driving. They don't have to shift gears so that leaves one hand free to hold a cell phone to their ear, or text or play on a laptop, or monkey with the radio. Drivers no longer need positional awareness skills because their GPS takes them from door to door. It would be interesting to see how many of the younger drivers could actually use a map. I seriously doubt if a lot of drivers know where they are when they travel, other than they are somewhere between the start point and the end point.

My 20 year old grandson has zero mechanical skills or understanding. That's OK as long as he is astute enough to recognize he has to have someone deal with a strange noise or vibration or an errant gauge. But by design the car manufacturers have isolated the driver from reality by actually concealing the mechanicals and discouraging an owner from understanding a little about what is going on. That disconnect is going to lead to drivers who are nothinbg more than passengers with a steering wheel in their lap. The car has anti lock braking, it has stability control, cruise control, GPS, an in the case of my newest car 28 processors to keep me from hurting the car or myself.

We used to think nothing of driving through deep snow, rain, icy roads and as long as we had some basic tools we could keep going under most circumstances. Not any more.

If technology is so great I wonder why so many on this forum are driving vintage coaches with manual transmissions requiring driving skills and mechanical abilities?

[CrabbyMilton]

Well said but there is no excuse for not paying attention without hacking away on the phone. That's just plain stupid. Whether it's driving stick, making pie from scratch, flying a pre-jet powered vintage aircraft, or operating a steam locomotive, people can choose to do such things and all the more power to them.

[Lin]

Things change.  I only recently found out that those short whips where originally meant for horses!

[Len Silva]

One of the downsides to technology is that when the vehicles age out, they get more expensive to maintain.  That applies to us busnuts on a budget as well as the poor folks who can only afford the lowest level of automobile.

I grew up with $10 and $20 cars in the fifties, $3-400 today.  We were well know at the junkyards as we tried to keep our heaps running.  The poor people of tomorrow, trying to squeeze the last miles out of an old car won't have that ability.  I suspect that many of today's cars will be scrapped long before they are completely worn out just because they are too expensive to repair.

[artvonne]

I suspect that many of today's cars will be scrapped long before they are completely worn out just because they are too expensive to repair.

  Sadly, that occurred a long time ago. Parts have become so expensive, as well as machine and service work, many vehicles are worth more in parts.

  Heck, these Buses are that way now, they have lost so much value, yet it still costs just as much to repair. One big engine job can out-cost the acquisition cost of many of them now.

[CrabbyMilton]

That's so true with transit and skoolies. Transits have a prescribed life of 12 years then, they no longer get money from the fed to fix them so they either sell them off or junk them if they are in really sorry shape since it's easier just to buy new ones. Skoolies in some areas have a written or unwritten rule that they are not to be used to transport crumb crunchers once the bus is 10 years old. The operators also get money from the public pot so what do they care and they love to buy new buses. That's why the old CROWN and GILLIG are no longer built because the market favors the throw away idea. Getting back to ALLISON. Like it or not, the market is what it is.

[HB of CJ]

To fit into some retro bus applications.  I for one would have more fun shifting the infamous close ratio RTO910 Fuller 10-sp Roadranger.  HB of CJ (old coot) (who likes shifting gears)

[Oonrahnjay]

(snip)  a new Allison being tested the TC-10 a 10 speed the torque converter is for launch only then the other gears lock up pretty neat

        Clifford, is this an "electronic" transmission?  If so, is there a "manual" setting so that it can be used with a non-electronic engine?   Thanks,  BH

[buswarrior]

I would doubt that integrating with a non electronic engine is even on the map.

In fact, I would fire an engineer that suggested such a foolish idea in 2011.

The on-road engines have been electronic for how many years now?

No market, no income, waste of resources.

The earliest ATEC Allisons, with those throttle position sensors, mated to a mechanical engine, are the last of bridging the gap.

And they worked like crap.

Allison has lost a ton of sales to those automated auto boxes, they need market share back. New vehicle sales is their focus, not the re-treads.

The future busnuts will be those who wizard the various bits and pieces to work together with electronics.

We old school types, we are the ones who fit in with the buggy drivers with the manual spark advance, hand cranks, and shoveling coal into the boiler.

And, we shall continue to do so proudly and with great flourish.

happy coaching!
buswarrior