Running Transmission oil?

[mugsytrpt]

Hello everyone,

I am new to this forum and have enjoyed reading and learning so far.  I have a 1981 TMC MCI9 with a kubota gen set.  My question is:  Have any of you ever heard of or ran burnt transmission oil as a fuel.  I know several people who use it in their tractors and cars.  I was thinking about doing a mixture of about 50/50 of even 60/40.  Any relief I could get from the pump would be great.  However, I do NOT want to hurt my engine.

Thanks for your comments in advance.  I know some of you will have give me some great information about this question.

James

[wal1809]

Here is a link to answer your question.  http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums

I am not a blender other than I run old motor oil in the tank but not in that high concentration.  I put in anywhere from a quart to a gallon in when I fill up, sometimes.  Your engine will run on it no doubt.  You have to figure out how to thin it to the same or close specific gravity as Diesel or risk pump failure.  I am not sure if 50 50 will get your oil thin enough.  Search that site they have a whole lot of answers.

I chose an alternative fuel style years ago even before the fuel prices started getting rediculous.  I chose bio diesel and switched all of my vehicles to diesel.  I am now in the process of setting up a two tank system on my bus to run straight vegetable oil.  NExt is my excursion.  I will continue to make bio diesel for the VWs, and my tractors.

[Oonrahnjay]

(snip)   Have any of you ever heard of or ran burnt transmission oil as a fuel.   (snip)

     Let me begin this by saying that I'm a fuel psycho.  I have been living with a VW diesel for the past 8 years that has 20,000 pounds of pressure in its fuel injection lines and a clearance of 7 microns in the fuel pump so I'm totally paranoid about fuel.  IMO, there are three things that we look to a fuel for -- it has to burn, it has to lubricate (all diesel systems use fuel to lubricate fuel-related parts), and it has to cool.  But fuel has to be clean and dry -- has your "burnt" transmission oil been cared for to keep dirt and water out of it?

     OK, "used oil" will burn, we know that.  But is the lubrication there?  Transmission fluid (which is really oil) has a number of friction modifiers - it has to lubricate a transmission but it can't "do it too well".  Do we know what oil with those chemical additives will do to filters, fuel supply pumps, fuel injection pumps, injectors, etc.?  I sure don't.  And the use of "burnt' ANYTHING?  How many contaminant particles are in a gallon of "burnt" oil?  What will those contaminants do to your filters and the working parts of your injection pump and injectors/nozzles?  It may be that you can save $5 per tank of fuel and end up with having to replace your fuel injection system in 20,000 miles -- is that a good choice?  I guess it comes down to the old Clint Eastwood "So, are ya feeling LUCKY?"

     You might get by with it and save some money in the long run, but you might not.  I'd be really careful to get all the facts and make a good decision.

[TomC]

I'd have the oil analyzed first-then you can know better if you want to send it through your engine.  If it is the bus 2 stroke engine, the mechanical injectors are relatively loose compared to the new electronic injectors.  Good Luck, TomC

[luvrbus]

According to the DD bible they say no used oil has a high ash content,acids and along with other things

good luck

[artvonne]

  In my own opinion, I would caution you to research it as much as possible. One good source woul be diesel injection repair shops. Call several and see if you can bend their ear, surely a few have some working knowledge thhat extends beyond theory. The more information you have the better you can determine your decision.

  It was over 30 years ago I first heard of a diesel runniing on used french fryer fat and it fascinated me. And you heard many say it was asking for trouble, etc.. Today you find many old Mercedes 240 and 300 diesels with WO conversions, I dont think its the trouble many thought it would be. However, the guys doing it are almost always mechanics and know how to fix the car if it quits or clogs up. In fact just reading of all the various pieces of equipment and general advice to use all that equipment, filters, centrifuges and the like, should be a good warning to take their advice. There is usually a good reason everyone ends up doing the same thing.

  Another issue with putting ATF into your fuel is that its dyed red. If your ever stop checked and they see red dyed fuel, its unlikely they will buy your story that you put ATF in the fuel as that is an old story the evaders use. Ive heard of it happening, but have never had anyone say it happened to them first hand. But a heads up regardless

  For me, the fear of the injection clogging up running fryer fat would be my biggest fear. After that would be pump and injector life and how it burns within the engine. I have read of some engines rapidly building coke deposits on the piston crown and cylinder head from running vegetable based fuel as it supposedly can catylize under the right combustion conditions. Animal fats dont have that problem so much IIRC. Ive never had problems with real fuel, and when im far from home I dont like problems. If I was always/only filling up at home I might consider it, but it seems a lot of screwing around for not much gain. Especially if you end up with problems.

[TomC]

If you do put ATF into your fuel, yes it will turn your fuel red in color.  You might be sighted for off road fuel use.  But-if that did happen, demand that a sample of your fuel be taken for analysis.  ATF and the dye they use are chemically very different that is easily determined by the test lab.  In fact the dye they use has a special chemical signature that will only show up if it is dyed.  Without the dyes chemical signature, the ATF would just show as oil, and you'd be off the hook-albeit after alot of your time wasted in court and waiting for the test to come back.  Good Luck, TomC

[artvonne]

But-if that did happen, demand that a sample of your fuel be taken for analysis.  ATF and the dye they use are chemically very different that is easily determined by the test lab, and you'd be off the hook-albeit after alot of your time wasted in court and waiting for the test to come back.  Good Luck, TomC

  I dont know. I wouldnt be surprised they would stick you for the analysis, which could be very costly. To me its just not worth the adventure of dealing with corrupt governments and increasingly rabid state employees.

[TedsBUSted]

With ATF, I'd be most concerned with suspended metal, so finely ground that it would pass common filters.

With AFT sorts getting petty about the dye issue,  I'd be most concerned that there may be a legal argument that road tax is due despite the fuel being an alternative fuel, or even recovered highway fuel which may have been previously taxed.

As long as we're kicking sleeping dogs. . . what about emissions?

Ted

[TomC]

Anytime you add oil to the fuel, it will make for a more smoky exhaust.  That's why since 2002 (model year) it is illegal to put anything except Diesel fuel and possibly approved additive into the fuel tank.  Good Luck, TomC

[artvonne]

Anytime you add oil to the fuel, it will make for a more smoky exhaust.  That's why since 2002 (model year) it is illegal to put anything except Diesel fuel and possibly approved additive into the fuel tank.  Good Luck, TomC

  Hmmm. So what about alternate fuels, chicken fat, etc..

  I dont know about other states, but Minnesota has hit a few people for running WVO and not paying road tax. The hypocracy is deafening

[mugsytrpt]

OK guys along with your info here and what I have been reading in other places I am NOT going to run transmission oil in my tank.  With that being said I just spent $150.00 for 38.94 gallons of fuel.  Keeps going up.  I was lucky I guess to get it for $3.79.  Anyway....Thank you all for your comments and suggestions.

James

[JohnEd]

It used to be common shop practice to charge/prime the new fuel filter with ATF.  The stuff cleans the injectors and scrubs the piston head.  I AM TOLD by men old enuf to have forgotten the truth.  An old salt on here cautioned me that the new ATF isn't the same stuff as the old stuff and that my theory might not still work.   When the time comes I will make every effort to take advantage of this fuel but trust me the homework will be done.

here are guys called "blenders".  They make D by blending stuff with either RUG(regular unleaded gasoline) or Dino.  Adding RUG in 10 or 20% concentrations causes all the impurities to drop out of suspension quickly.  After that they get the water out by passing the fuel over rock salt which draws the water and lets a lot of other stuff fall out....like salt cause it was in the water and D won't dissolve salt or sugar or hold it in suspension.  Blenders also use WMO (Waste motor oil or atf).  Again, the RUG causes the crap in the WMO to drop out.  I would have the resultant "fuel" sent off to be analyzed as drained motor oil.  See what the lab says?  Ash or sulphur or metals listed in parts per million and the amt of oil diluted by "fuel" spelled out in %.  Does this sound fool proof?  Not on your life as the naysayers will quickly point out that the test is applicble to "that batch" only.  Wewll that is true about the test they do on the pump D unless they tyest every tankfull they put in a truck.

The centrafuge is a great aid.  It will filter down to the sub micron level and nothing you can buy for automotive fuel or oil will even come close to that. Mack used to run a centrafuge filter on their trucks to clean the oil and those very cents are used by the home brewers but sub micron isn't their performance norm.  In that case the big draw is that there is no filter to clog and the filtration is the same during the cleaning cycle of the cent.

Back in the day the DD manual said that the dilution limit of motor oil to the fuel was 10% or your warranty was voided.  That was the 71 series motors that are running today that people, including DD, now say will not function with oil in the DinoD.

If I had all my druthers I would have a two tank system.  One tank would hold BioD with some oil added.  The other tank would hold WVO with some oil in it.  In the winter I would "soften" my Bio with RUG or DinoD.  I know this can be done and also that it will require some work.  Screw those Arabs but DEATH to the domestic oil cartel's tyrany and criminal behavior.  I hates those meeces to pieces...Jerry.

Sour WVO soaked in sawdust make a truly magnificent fireplace fuel.  Don't throw the settlings away either.

Do I feel GREEN?  Hexx yes I do and that wasn't even one of my objectives.

John

[wal1809]

JOhned that is exactly how I will be rolling down the road.  My new valves have not arrived.  I ordered them with 3 day shipping and paid dearly for it.  Greasecar man called me and said they didn't make it on the 3 day shipping so they will not arrive until Monday or Tuesday.  I am bummed because we were going to the rally, hopefully on WVO.  They did eat the entire amount of shipping so that was alright I guess.

So far as mixing RUG in anything I am leary for my use.  I have friends that have run 70% wvo and 30% RUG.  They laugh every time they see my set up or see me working on the 2 tank for the bus.  It just isn't for me.  My main fear is would be this.  WVO will burn as in if the bus or car crashes.  It will burn at a very slow to later a faster pace.  Mix it with gasoline and it will burn out of control fast.  Not to mention explosive vapors. 

[JohnEd]

WAL,

Thank you! 

Your concern about volatility is valid and not wasted on me, I assure you.  It is the same consideration I have for gasoline powered autos.  Propane fueled pick-up trucks with that 100 gallon tank in the bed seems scary and even the local "green" transits in this berg have the propane on the roof.  Still, I heat and cook with gas but I want those tanks in the "center of the bay" and away from any side swipes.  Now, that HYDROGEN fuel thingy is really scary to me, and while I have full confidence that that fuel can be mad "safe" for the public, I also know that heating the fuel tank to 200 plus degrees nis insane but just look at what "the profit motive" did for all those Ford Pinto pilots that were immolated when their little car was merely BUMPED by the car following.  Stinken Gummint Interference didn't straighten out that mess....it took a horrified and angry jury of twelve angry humans and a passel of Personal Injury  Attorneys to resolve that.  I didn't change the subject...still talk'n bout dangerous fuels and how we deal with them.

Here is a truly scary thought.  Oil fired furnaces us a fuel identical to our Dino D for all intents.... You can easily blend VO with Dino and get a very usable fuel without major mods to you FURNACE.  You can also get a uasble fuel by blending RUG with WMO or RUG with WVO or RUG with SVO. S = straight.  Furnaces do all sorts of stuff like "dribble" fuel after shut down.  Over-fuel at start up.  Leak fuel into the furnace and surround.  It isn't "if" those things happen....it is when and how often.  Blending with RUG for furnace fuel is suicide and the GUMMINT should do something about it....whatever that might be.  The insurance companies are "on-board" with those dangers and have taken prompt action to nullify your insurance if you use ANY fuel other than HHO. regardless of how safe.  Any mod to a furnace will void your coverage and leave you naked.  It is in you policy, in black and white, in the finest print allowable by law on page 17 of your policy.  Really, it's there!    

We have similar thoughts often and that is a nice thing.

John