Cold Starting Two Stroke Detroit Diesel... What Do I Have???

[Depewtee]

Hi All,

I have been following this thread and several others discussing cold starting a two stroke Detroit Diesel.  I have a few questions about my own setup and did not want to hijack the other threads.  I currently have two busses (one I promise to put up for sale soon <-- for the benefit of my wife in case she is reading this ).  The first is a 1984 MCI MC-9 with a DD 6V92TA.  It has a block heater and last year I had the opportunity to use it on our multi-state search for snow (the kids had never seen snow before).  We ended up in Tennessee and on a very, very cold and snowy morning (down in the teens) I plugged the block heater in for about two hours and the engine fired like it was the middle of summer!  This brings me to my 1981 Prevost with an 8V71TA.  I have owned this bus for less than a year and have not had as much time as I would like to learn all of the systems.  I have yet to pay only the slightest of attention to the "cold start" system, but from what I have seen so far I have a few questions.

First, I have a switch on the dash labled "Ether."  Additionally, there is a bottle in the engine compartment similarly identified along with a mention in the users manual about a one-second shot of ether in cold weather.  I live in the south, and although it is very cold today (high was 43 ) I do not feel I have a need for this system.  I plan on removing it unless other recommend otherwise.  If anyone wants this system they can have it (pay the cost of shipping) once I have time to remove it (unless you want it really bad, then feel free to come and remove it anytime  ).  Here is a picture of the switch and a picture of the bottle.





Second, I have two switches on the dash labeled "Autoheat Front Rear."  Additionally, I have a small 110 volt water heater that is tied into the engine coolant and an Esbar unit (I believe it is tied into both).  The Esbar is not working - the fuel lines are disconnected from it and I have not tried to fire it, nor do I know how.  Is this a second engine heating system?  Why would I have two switches with marked "front" and one marked "rear."  Here are pictures of the switches, hot water heater, and Esbar unit.  By the way, there is a second "full size" electric hot water heater in another bay that provides hot water for the sinks and shower.  I am seriously considering replacing it with an on-demand unit at each location (bathroom sink, kitchen sink, and shower - might somehow tie the bathroom sink and shower lines together to help with the shower).







Last, I have a large glass fuel filter looking thingy (not sure you would find that part name at your local NAPA store) in the engine compartment.  Not sure what this is or what it does.  It does not appear to have a filter in it and it has two electrical wires coming form of it, although the wires have been disconnected.  Is this some type of fuel warmer?  If so, I have no need for it (again, unless some of you convince me otherwise) and I plan on removing it (again, pay cost of shipping and it is yours for the asking).  My thought process is Keep It Simple Stupid.  If I can rely on just the Esbar, assuming I can get it working and it preheats the engine coolant, I prefer to go that route - possibly with a block heater as a backup (it worked so well that morning in Tennessee).  Here is a picture of the fuel filter looking thingy.



Sorry about the quality of the pictures, but it was dusk and very cold out...

Brian S.

[Brassman]

I'll take that Racor fuel filter cannister in you're last photo.

[stevet903]

Brian - the bottom picture is a Racor 1000FH fuel filter/water separator.  Prevost uses them as the engine primary fuel filter.  The wires are probably for an indicator in the dash that tells you that there is water in the fuel.  The bowl on the bottom is where any water in the fuel will collect - the filter element is about 10" long and is in the chamber above the bowl and is not visible unless you take the top off.  It takes a 2020SM-OR (2 micron), 2020TM-OR (10 micron), or 2020PM-OR (30 micron) filter element.  Napa can cross that for you, or you can usually find them at West Marine.  I use a 10 micron on mine, and carry a couple of spares.

The water heater looks like it has a 110V heater for when you are plugged in, and a heat exchanger that uses circulating engine coolant to heat the water when you are driving down the road.  I suppose that if you had a circulating pump you could use it to heat your engine when you were stopped and plugged in, but you probably would kill your hot water for a couple of hours if you started when the engine was cool.  I think you'd probably be happier with a block heater.  I think you can find one pretty easily for under $100.

Steve

[papatony]

Block heater much better

[Joe Camper]

Those 2 switches are  probably for cabin heat off the e-spar but that is a guess. Somewhere in the cabin you should have at least a couple probably 4 0r 5 heater core/blowers running off of d/c heating the cabin. Look around they could be hiding. I will take all your oud parts put them in a box I will be in Fla in early Feb.

I have never ethered my 2 stroke started it in 0 degree with 4 or 5 hr of electric block heat, easy. E-spar or webasto or aqua-hot.......45 min same thing.

Also I have learned when starting when it is close to freezing without any preheating of any kind that multiple very short cranks  and it cranks up after the 4th or 5th burst no preheat whatsoever. Staying on the starter does nothing but heat up the starter.

Never tried cold start below freezing probably wouldn't be pretty.

[gmbusguy1]

These items are very nice to have and once you get acquainted with them you will most likely want to keep them

Chris  

[Joe Camper]

The e-spar if installed like many others it preheats the engine the water heater the plumbing bay and the cabin.

If your battery bank is healthy you should stay toasty for at least 8 hr without needing the generator.

This IS also the best and quickest way to preheat your engine period. If you already have it do not discard it it can get fixed it is worth fixing it.

[Joe Camper]

The water heater looks like a Raritan. A marine parts manufacturer. Good stuff I have the same one.

[Depewtee]

I'll take that Racor fuel filter cannister in you're last photo.

Brassman - Looks like I will be keeping the "fuel filter looking thingy" now that I know that it is actually a fuel filter.  I had the bus serviced after I bought it and the invoice shows they changed three fuel filters - one of those was for the genset.

Brian - the bottom picture is a Racor 1000FH fuel filter/water separator.  Prevost uses them as the engine primary fuel filter.  The wires are probably for an indicator in the dash that tells you that there is water in the fuel.  The bowl on the bottom is where any water in the fuel will collect - the filter element is about 10" long and is in the chamber above the bowl and is not visible unless you take the top off.  It takes a 2020SM-OR (2 micron), 2020TM-OR (10 micron), or 2020PM-OR (30 micron) filter element.  Napa can cross that for you, or you can usually find them at West Marine.  I use a 10 micron on mine, and carry a couple of spares.

Steve - Thanks for identifying the fuel filter.  The fuel in the bowl looks good and water free.  I will chase the two wires one day and see if they do indeed lead to a tell-tale light.

Those 2 switches are  probably for cabin heat off the e-spar but that is a guess. Somewhere in the cabin you should have at least a couple probably 4 0r 5 heater core/blowers running off of d/c heating the cabin. Look around they could be hiding.

Joe - I will start snooping around and see what I find for heater blowers.  As it is now, when I flip the switches nothing happens.

I will take all your oud parts put them in a box I will be in Fla in early Feb.

Joe - Once I remove the ether bottle and associated hardware I will place it all in a box for you.

Brian S.

[Joe Camper]

The blowers will not come on untill you first have 2 other things happening 1 the master switch on the e-spar itself has to be on AND 2 the thermostats for those zones in the cabin are turned up past the current temp in the bus. It will also require suffucuant battery voltage and a fuel source.

If you have all this.......bingo

[lostagain]

The two wires on the Racor fuel filter could be for heating the fuel.

I have one with a 110V fuel pre heater, and a 12V heater that you would run while under way in cold weather.

Don't give up on any of that stuff. Fix it and you'll be glad you have it. You never know when you find yourself in cold weather.

JC

[Depewtee]

...is a Racor 1000FH fuel filter/water separator....  It takes a 2020SM-OR (2 micron), 2020TM-OR (10 micron), or 2020PM-OR (30 micron) filter element.

Following up on Steve's post I decided to investigate the Racor fuel filter a little more.  Turns out the Racor 1000FH is a very nice setup and it is the one I have .  I went out to my bus and pulled the paper filter from the canister and it was disgusting looking!  I went to the Parker/Racor website and read up on the filter (read about the 1000FH) and it turns out it was not as bad as I thought.  Apparently, it is not uncommon for them to turn black, although I do not plan on letting mine get to that stage again.  The website cautioned to look for algae on the filter, fortunately mine was algae free.  The bowl at the bottom of my filter unit is pretty dirty, so based on Racor recommendations I am going to pull it off tomorrow and clean it up before putting the new paper filter in.  By the way, there is a West Marine two blocks from my house so I shot down there and picked up a 2020SM 2 micron filter for $17.49.  I decided on the 2 micron filter as that is what is currently in the bus.  After some more research I might be switching to a 10 micron filter, hence I did not buy a spare at this time.  Here is a picture of the old filter next to the new filter (taken in the dark).

Brian S.

[stevet903]

Couple of things I learned the hard way - Do you have a shutoff valve before the filter?  If so, close it before opening the filter up (sorry this advise might be late for you!!) to help prevent loosing the prime.  Get a gallon or so container of diesel and use it to fill up the filter canister to the very brim and then put the cover back on. (Some people use quart containers of ATF, they are easy to carry and not as smelly as diesel) I always run it before I change the filters so it's warm and will start easily, and hopefully keep running if it ends up getting a few bubbles in from the filter change.  I change the primary first, run it on high idle for a couple of minutes to be sure there are no leaks and to get any bubbles out, then do the secondary.  I haven't lost the prime doing it this way - but that's just my way.

Steve