Why do I keep murdering start batteries?

[belfert]

I'm starting to understand why Dallas and other people have left.

It is getting starting to get cold here in Minnesota.  I don't have indoor space to work on my bus.  My next two or three weekends are tied up getting my garage and yard in shape for winter.

If I can nurse the batteries through until spring it will be a lot warmer and more light to work on things then.  It will give me time over the winter to study the wiring to determine the best course of action for adding disconnects and such.  If need be I'll completely disconnect the batteries over the winter.

It isn't that I don't want to fix this.  The batteries will take a charge to at least start the bus and I don't have any place to be right now with the bus.

[Ace]

Well Hell, if your going to just give up and winterize your garage and your yard rather than prep your bus then why are we here? You should have gone and posted on greenthumb.com

There has been 60 post in this thread not counting this one and I feel now that I'm glad the play offs are on! I thought we ALL were helping you get your bus ready and maybe help you to be more confident along with planning your trip to Arcadia but it appears that every time someone came up with a solution, another snag >read excuse< took place! I don't get it! If it isn't the batteries, the lack of charging, the phantom drains, the vanner, the cut off switches, the wiring, money, the charger itself, time of day, and NOW you want to use the weather, darkness, garage and your yard? Come on Brian! Give us a break and what does that comment mean, you know why Dallas and others left? Could it be they left because they got tired of stuff like THIS? TRYING to help someone that follows with excuse after excuse? I don't think so!
Ok I'm done flaming! It has been a long time and yes it felt good but now I'm back to normal! Gone from THIS post!

[Melbo]

Cool Ace I liked that.

Melbo

YMMV

[HighTechRedneck]

Brian, there are a couple things to note and consider when you measure them again this weekend.  If you are testing them within a few hours of taking the charger off of them, they should read high.  Just over 24V is still kind of low even after the surface charge dissipates, but right after removing the charger it should be significantly higher I believe.  If loads were disconnected, then waiting 12 hours before taking a voltage reading would be a lot more meaningful. But with the possibility of a phantom drain, waiting would just open that possiiblity for draining them again.

Given all that you posted, I am still open to the idea that nothing has really changed, but it was never good.  There could be 6-7 amps of phantom drain with that many wires direct connecting to the batteries.  The 10A charger is able to cover that and still deliver a slow trickle charge to the batteries, which when parked for a week or so and the batteries have a fair charge left from the road, that works, albeit not great.  When you parked it without the charger, that full drain was hitting the batteries.

If you have the time when you stop by here on your way down to Arcadia, I'm sure the shop would let us borrow their load tester to get an absolute answer on the battery health.

[belfert]

Well Hell, if your going to just give up and winterize your garage and your yard rather than prep your bus then why are we here? You should have gone and posted on greenthumb.com

There has been 60 post in this thread not counting this one and I feel now that I'm glad the play offs are on! I thought we ALL were helping you get your bus ready and maybe help you to be more confident along with planning your trip to Arcadia but it appears that every time someone came up with a solution, another snag >read excuse< took place! I don't get it! If it isn't the batteries, the lack of charging, the phantom drains, the vanner, the cut off switches, the wiring, money, the charger itself, time of day, and NOW you want to use the weather, darkness, garage and your yard? Come on Brian! Give us a break and what does that comment mean, you know why Dallas and others left? Could it be they left because they got tired of stuff like THIS? TRYING to help someone that follows with excuse after excuse? I don't think so!
Ok I'm done flaming! It has been a long time and yes it felt good but now I'm back to normal! Gone from THIS post!

IF IT ISN'TSO BROKE THAT THE BUS WON'T RUN WHY SHOULD I MAKE IT THE #1 PRIORITY IN MY LIFE TO FIX RIGHT NOW??  It isn't like I am planning to drive my bus with a broken air line or bad brakes or something that will endanger others on the road.

It may get looked at before Spring or it may not.  I don't exactly enjoy freezing my fingers off trying to work on stuff when it is 40 degrees outside.  THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT WOULD STOP ME FROM GOING TO ARCADIA!!

That advice people have given on this will be just as valid in the spring as it is today.

[robertglines1]

Brian--I agree I worked out all my life--now retired I run to the sun when I can--stay warm or cool when necessary..I really think if I had to do it over I should have retired first(about 20) then about 55 went to work then retired again..

[Ed Hackenbruch]

Bob, i tried that.....retired at 21! It was great except that i had no income so it did not last long.

[luvrbus]

Brian, I enjoy your posts but you leave yourself wide open for this flaming it gets very frustrating trying to help you seems like you ask for help and already have an answer for the problem or you are going to do it different anyway and there is nothing wrong with that it just rubs some people the wrong way if it works for you on the batteries do it your way it is not any of our business it's your bus and money


good luck

[Van]

I agree Clifford, and while the door is still open, let me add this, Brian, do it in your time but tuck them puppies away for the winter and keep em' warm and for the love of mike don't use that BBuddy heater, other wise you won't get the battery compartment door open until the next thaw (spring) . It is all in the timing... your timing

  No flaming from here,well just a little ribbing.
    good luck
     
       Van

[Busted Knuckle]

1st; I need to pore over the wiring diagrams and figure out the best way to disconnect the extra loads so I don't keep spending $350 every year or two on batteries.


2nd; I need to decide how much hassle it is worth to deal with the existing batteries.  There are at least a dozen wire connections that need to be disconnected to get the batteries out and it takes a good hour or two to get the batteries disconnected and out.

3rd; I suppose they need to come out if they are to be replaced so I might as well try to recover them.  Should I charge each individual battery at 10 amps or do I need to find a charger that can do like 2 amps?

1st; GOOD LUCK! Dad and I have already BTDT. And evidently Carl has too! (after all the man has literally owned 40 if not more Dina's over the yrs {shoot @ 1 time he had 16 of them in service in his fleet, not counting the ones he had out on "lease purchase" or has bought & sold) If Carl takes the 4 out and goes to 2 with 3 cut offs I can assure you he ain't do'n it fer his health! (and he did as Rick suggested and tied all the little leads to one post and ran one major cable to the center tap with the "kill switch" like the racers use! Also same style on the main negative and the MCI knife blade in place of the original shut off! [same location even!)

2nd; Yeah really look close as to where those wires coming off the "center tap" go and notice that the Vanner ties them into a bunch of grounds on the panel on the wall behind the batteries which lets them create the "floating ground!"

3rd;I agree it doesn't hurt to try and save them. But in the end I am saying good by to them! Since you seem to like them and trying and trying to fix them I may have them shipped to you next time I know of someone going yer way. (Or I could meet you with them as you come down I-24 on yer way to Arcadia!)

Hey DIYW but remember YMMV!
 BK  

[Tony LEE]

"I charged the batteries for 24 hours at 10 amps and the voltmeter was showing just over 24 volts."

so they are still essentially flat.

[belfert]

"I charged the batteries for 24 hours at 10 amps and the voltmeter was showing just over 24 volts."

so they are still essentially flat.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here?  The battery bank started at under 16 volts and in 24 hours they were over 24 volts.

Maybe just over 24 volts is a little low for a 24 volt bank, but I've never seen much over 24 volts even with brand new batteries.  The engine started just fine at just over 24 volts.

[belfert]

Okay, I decided not to wait until spring to look at my batteries.  It was supposed to be 70 degrees today (unseasonably warm) so I went into work early so I could get home early to look at the batteries.  Unfortunately I could only work until 6 pm due to a wake.

I went through the posts and looked at the various suggestions.  I called Bryce (twice) because I was slightly confused on what he was describing in his posts.  (Thanks Bryce!)

1.  Parasitic draw appears to be 1.4 amps at 24 volts.  For some reason I didn't get any reading on the 12 volt.  I'm wondering if there is a Vanner issue, but didn't get a chance to test yet with the Vanner disconnected.

2. I tried to remove the disconnect switch to make sure it was okay, but I couldn't get the last screw out.  (I bought a longer bit for my drill this evening.)  The switch is turning off all 24 volt except the Vanner so the draw has to come from the 12 volt side, Vanner, or the switch is bad.

3.  I discovered that I do indeed have removeable caps to add water.  At least one cell needs water so I will add water tomorrow.  (I'm too used to modern car batteries and figured the caps didn't come off.)

4. The 12 volt wiring is really screwy.  They took the 12 volt and the ground for the 12 volt directly off the Vanner.  The wire for the 12 volt looks kinda small to me at maybe 2 or 4 gauge.  I may rewire directly off the battery.
 
5. It looks like I can easily add a disconnect for the 12 volt wiring.  I just need to buy a switch and some new cables. 

6. Bryce recommended going with two 8Ds instead of the 4 group 31 batteries to save on cost.  If I do need new batteries I'll probably do this.

More to come when I get a little more time and cooperative weather.

[Ace]

Brian, not sure if this is right but ever since my last set of 4 group 31 batteries was installed and kept on a float charger when not running down the road, my batteries are kept at a voltage of almost 28 volts or just under like 27.4 - 27 8. My silverleaf confirms this once I disconnect the float and fire the coach up and run down the road!
I would think that IF you were to start your coach on 24 volts it was at the bare minimum and once it cranked, it may have used up what little charge they had in them and would have to be runa little longer than just moving it to bring them up to full charge via your alternator.
As for my 12 volt side? When I check them, they always check out around 13.7-9 and if you multiply that by 2 you get the 24 volt reading. In other words I can check each battery independently and get a 12 volt reading. If I add 2 of them together, I get my 24 volt reading when I check the 24 volt leg.

[rv_safetyman]

Brian, there are lots of sites that talk about battery voltage and State Of Charge (SOC).  They all have voltage charts (and warn you that voltage is a marginal way of measuring SOC).  As has been said, your voltage is very low for a 24 volt system - if the batteries have been in a condition where there is no charging or discharging for several hours.  

I can't find my favorite site, but here is one that talks about voltage and SOC:  

http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_battery_metering.html

And a more technical site:

http://www.mpoweruk.com/soc.htm

SOC is important for a good battery, but it does not tell you what the battery condition is.  I can't tell if you have removed the batteries yet or not.  When you do, you should have them load tested - the only way to determine the condition of a battery.  Not sure how many shops will do four for you, but you could do a couple at a time.  They will want to charge them on their charger first and then do the load test.  That is the only way of knowing if your batteries are toast or not.

BTW what the heck are you doing getting a head start of preparation for a trip - you will ruin the fun of us following your last minute prep sagas  

Jim