Why do I keep murdering start batteries?

[dougyes]

Most of the phantom loads go through the Vanners. We put a battery switch from Walmart on each Vanner and that cured the problem.

[HighTechRedneck]

I've sometimes wondered, but not enough to investigate, does the Vanner itself exert a phantom load on the bats?

[Busted Knuckle]

I've sometimes wondered, but not enough to investigate, does the Vanner itself exert a phantom load on the bats?

You might be onto something here Mike. But I really don't know!
I do know however our older Setra's have Vanner(s) and we never had a problem with them draining the batteries! I could let one sit for over a month and the buses would start right up and these buses never get the batteries manually disconnected by us! (they have an electronic shut off solenoid that kills most of the electricity when we turn the ignition off!
 BK  

[belfert]

Brian that is exactly why Carl changed his set up to the 2 8D's and I am going to do the same in the near future!.

I reread your original message about changing to 8Ds.  I fail to understand why it would be necessary to change to 8D batteries in order to add cutoff switches for the 12 volt lines?  The first 35 Dinas made had 8D batteries and then they switched to group 31s.

Some of the Vanners require that the ground be removed first so it would not be a good idea to switch the 12 volt lines from a Vanner.  The Vanner manual describes adding a ground side disconnect with a diode in the 12 volt line.

[luvrbus]

The 8D batteries have such a higher reserve ( not CCA) than the group 31 with the 4 battery setup one weak battery will kill the other 3 load test the 4 batteries not a voltage test.
A 2 8D system is so much easier to maintain than a 4 battery system but those suckers are heavy


good luck

[Tenor]

Why not head to a better auto parts store that sells battery disconnects that are used by drag racers for the center tap lines?  Like this one:


http://www.streetperformance.com/ART/PRODUCTS/100700/moroso-74102.jpeg

Glenn

[Van]

Brian, sorry to hear of your woes. Pull those suckers out! charge them separately then load test them, replace the bad ones. I am not a fan of mixing new batts with old, but do what ya gotta do to get by for now or replace the whole lot and be done with them. Kill the Phantom drains, I know.. Its a pain in the  A-whole to reprogram the car stereo each time you set out on a trip but with the little use that our busses get, that is a small price to pay. I use my 3 31's for start and house power for now and try to keep a close eye on them all the time. All the best.


   Van

[belfert]

My radio is connected to my house batteries so no issues with reprogramming the radio.  I connected it to the house batteries so the radio could be used when parked and not running down the road.  I don't have anything programmed in anyhow because my radio antenna is broken and doesn't get hardly any stations.  I just use the radio for playing MP3 CDs and iPod.

[TomC]

If you have a phantom load on the batteries, no type of battery will hold the charge.  You should either disconnect the batteries in between use, or get a solar battery charger.  I have a solar battery charger on my generator at the house.  The Trojan size 31 battery (of which they don't make anymore) is 11 years old and still cranks the gen (I know, just had a power outage a couple of weeks ago)-course no vibration or heat to cut the life short.  Good Luck, TomC

[belfert]

My batteries are officially DEAD, or my parasitic loads have increased dramatically!  I charged the batteries at 10 amps for quite a while and then let them sit for 24 hours.  After 24 hours they show less than 16 volts again.

I need to pore over the wiring diagrams and figure out the best way to disconnect the extra loads so I don't keep spending $350 every year or two on batteries.

[HighTechRedneck]

I think your next step in troubleshooting needs to be isolating the batteries to test them as Van suggested.  Disconnect them completely and charge each one.  Then let it sit disconnected and see what happens.  If all four batteries hold their charge, then you will know the problem is entirely a phantom drain.  Since it is accelerating it could be damaged insulation causing a wire to short out, in which case finding it becomes critical as a matter of safety.

On the other hand if one or two batteries drain down all on their own, then they are damaged and have an internal short.  That would not be to say you don't have phantom drains.  You still should find a way to isolate the batteries when not in use.  Aside from the Vanner it would simply be a matter of putting disconnect switches between battery posts and the cables/wires connecting to them.  As for the Vanner, you already mentioned the manual recommended solution for that.

[belfert]

I highly suspect at this point that I killed the entire battery bank when I didn't hook up the trickle charger when I got home from my trip.  The batteries made it for three or four days without being charged just last month.  Now they don't make it more than a few hours.

I need to decide how much hassle it is worth to deal with the existing batteries.  There are at least a dozen wire connections that need to be disconnected to get the batteries out and it takes a good hour or two to get the batteries disconnected and out.

I suppose they need to come out if they are to be replaced so I might as well try to recover them.  Should I charge each individual battery at 10 amps or do I need to find a charger that can do like 2 amps?

[HighTechRedneck]

I don't think it would be a waste of time or effort.  As you noted, they have to come out anyway if you are going to replace them.  And you really need to know the situation before you put fresh new batteries in anyway.  If it is a shorting wire, it would still be a problem and could cost you much more than four more batteries if allowed to continue.

Be sure you label all wires you remove and take a photo before disconnecting any of them.  I recall a thread in the past where someone disconnected all the wires connecting the batteries and then had a rough time getting it all put back when they installed the new ones.

I don't think 10 amps would be out of line for each one.  I've flat lined a few auto batteries over the years and charged them back up at 10-12 amps.

[HighTechRedneck]

Another point to consider.  If there is a short, it could be sucking down most of that 10 amps from the charger.  I'm not sure of the amp hour capacity of those start batteries, but it would seem like two pairs getting 10 amps at 24V would need at least 24 hours to reach full charge even if they are getting the full 10 amps.  If they are only getting a couple amps of it and then getting drained again by a short or other strong phantom drain, that would achieve those results. 

Just theorizing here , but as I understand it, any reading you take right after charging is nearly useless because of surface charge.  So comparing that to the reading 12-24 hours later isn't giving you an accurate picture of what is going on.  For example it doesn't mean that the charger loaded them up and they drained it all back down overnight.  If a short or drain was taking most of what the charger was giving but some was going into the batteries it could result in enough surface charge to make the reading look good right when you take the charger off.  But as the surface charge dissipates, they are still pretty flat.

[gumpy]

I've sometimes wondered, but not enough to investigate, does the Vanner itself exert a phantom load on the bats?

Interestingly enough, the Vanner may be the biggest culprit in the whole problem. If one of the 4 batteries in his bank has a bad cell, the Vanner will continuously try to equalize it by drawing from the remaining batteries. In short order that one bad cell will kill the remaining batteries in the bank!