Should RV's Require DOT Stuff

[oldmansax]

I got my license at 15, and started driving a commercial vehicle at 16. I have driven all over the US, most of Canada, and some of Mexico commercially. I have driven both company owned trucks and my own. I have owned or managed several small trucking companies

I am going to assume, which is almost always a bad start, that the reason most folks on here would want any regulation on either driver and/or vehicle is to make the roads safer. I would offer the following observations based on the above experience.

SAFETY AIN'T NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN BY REGULATIONS!!

Irregardless of the regulations already in place, I have seen equipment on the road in every state/province, that should be in the junk yard, not once or twice, but many, many times. Any old time driver has a raft of stories. I have also seen drivers out of hours, unqualified, drunk, drugged, crippled and maladjusted driving everyday. Sure, some get caught, but most drive on until they die, retire, or do something that brings them to the attention of the authorities.

Everything works on capitalist principles. The only thing that will improve safety on the road is to make the risk greater than the reward.

As a society, we do not have the internal fortitude to do that; therefore, we pass increasingly restrictive laws that impinge on everyone's freedom.

For example, I despise drinking and driving. However, If you want to drink & drive I think you should be allowed. BUT, if you are involved in an accident, I think you should be executed on the spot. No trial, no 15 years on death row, we drag you out of the wreckage and hang you to the nearest tree or light pole. With the risk so great, the drunk driving problem would soon be solved.

This approach is the only one that will solve life's problems. As long as the perceived rewards, (money for hauling the load, getting to the job on time, drinking those 3 martinis to unwind after work, owning and driving a bus conversion instead of one of those measly  sticks & staples) outweigh the risks (traffic tickets, fines, jail time, law suits, social stigma) the unwanted behavior will continue, because we are at the mercy of the individuals conscience.

And, to paraphrase Sgt. Friday, "That's the facts, Ma'am"

TOM

[junkman42]

Tom, using Your logic there would be no adultery, use of drugs or alcohol in the Muslim countries!  I think that proof positive is the laws in Muslim country's!  I quite often agree with You , however stoning to death cutting hands off and be-headings do not seem to work either!  Regulations just work for the honest, unfortunately it doesn't seem to faze a lot of people.  Just My take,  John L

[cody]

I just bought a small utility trailer thats 5x10 that I'm going to use for hauling the goldwing or other stuff around, it has dog chain with the clasp for safety chains, I suppose maybe I should change them cause I really don't know how big a dog they were rated for.  I'll be chaining up for a larger dog but thought you guys might enjoy what i found, that trailer was in regular use several times a year between up here and detroit a run of about 600 miles each way, I'll probably use the precoiled cable for the new safety chains.

[bevans6]

For me, safety is all about attitude and education.  You have to be of a mindset that you want to do it right in the first place, and you have to know, or  be able to find out, how to do it right in the second place.  If you don't care or you don't know, the odds of doing it right drop dramatically.

Risk vs reward implies that people know what is the right thing to do, and don't do it anyway, for whatever reason.  Their attitude is "I will do it wrong, even though I know it's wrong, and me being the remarkably clever guy that I am I will not get caught, so there is no risk."  Or, and this relates to us somewhat "I will do it wrong, but I will know what I did and me being a remarkably clever guy I will overcome whatever hurdles this throws at me down the road, so there is no risk.  Plus I won't get caught".  I don't put a lot of faith in a risk vs reward way of getting people to do what you want them to do.

Brian

[oldmansax]

Tom, using Your logic there would be no adultery, use of drugs or alcohol in the Muslim countries!  I think that proof positive is the laws in Muslim country's!  I quite often agree with You , however stoning to death cutting hands off and be-headings do not seem to work either! 

John, The reason they don't work in Muslim countries is they are not enforced unilaterally. You will notice the women seem to get punished & not the men UNLESS the man has already made the powers-that-be mad or the man is an American, Israelite, or whatever.

I have a heavy foot. I will normally run at whatever speed I think is safe, regardless of whether it is above or below the speed limit. I do that because, if caught, I can pay the fine. If they passed a law that said 56 MPH in a 55 zone would get you removed from your vehicle & hanged on the spot, AND ENFORCED IT ON EVERYBODY, I would be driving 45 MPH every where. There would be no "I'm sorry Officer, I wasn't paying attention" or "My speedometer is off by 10 MPH".  I would obey the law. And, so would most on this board. I also submit, if you are dumb enough to take that chance, you shouldn't be driving anyway. Risk versus reward.

So, my way would weed out the malcontents & massive risk takers. Would there be some semi-innocents executed? Sure, but how many innocents are executed legally or illegally now? No system is perfect, but I think mine would be better.

Notice I am NOT in favor of more laws and regulations. I am saying you can do what you want UNTIL YOU HURT SOMETHING OR SOMEBODY. Then, you pay the price.

Just my take too 

TOM

[poppi]

Jim,

   Here is appendix G that has all of it.
   http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=r49CFRSubtitleBChapterIIISubchapterBAppendixG

  Skip

[bevans6]

I found that very interesting, for several reasons.  One is that it is a "North American Uniform Driver-Vehicle Inspection Procedure (NAUD-VIP)", which would imply that it is applicable in both US and Canada, which makes sense, two is that it acknowledges that there are different failure criteria for a periodic (annual) inspection and for a roadside inspection.  Road side inspections acknowledge that a vehicle with some faults that would fail the periodic can be allowed to continue on ( for example 20% of brakes fail inspection vs 0% fail inspection), and they don't list DD3 brake cannisters in their list.  Oh well, we are getting old I guess...

deleted a bit I didn't read the fine print on.


Brian

[luvrbus]

 guys we have rode this poor horse to death time to put him out to pasture and close the gate 




good luck

[artvonne]

  Gentlemen, we are unfortunately dealing with two very different cultures. People in other countries cannot understand that some of us here in the US would rather be dead than allow our Government to have much authority over us, anymore than we can understand that they welcome it. We both want the same things, something we can never truly have, we just have different ideas how to accomplish it.

  I pulled this up off the NTHSA DOT statistics for 1998, which I believe is that last year they have compiled. You can read the entire document here:
http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/ncsa/tsf-1998.pdf

  Please note that there were not many bus crashes, but that the majority were transits and school busses, which are almost all PUBLICALLY regulated and generally exempt from spot DOT inspections such as commercial vehicles are. And note too, that only 15 fatalities occured for busses other, and busses unknown. I dont know what those are, but probably not all would be conversions, and quite possibly none of them are if registered as an RV. Looking at large truck based motorhomes, which could possibly include Bus conversions, are 24 fatalities. In any case, for the year of 1998, less than 50 people died in these vehicles, a small fraction of a percent of the total number. More people died on Farm equipment, snowmobiles and ATV's. I think there are greater things to worry about that Big Bus Campers driven by normal Joes with standard drivers licenses.

  Table 36
Vehicles Involved in Fatal Crashes by Body Type
Body Type Number Percent Body Type Number Percent
Passenger Cars 28,992 51.0 Large Trucks 4,935 8.7
Convertible 297 0.5 Step Van 21 *
2 Door Sedan, Hardtop, Coupe 8,353 14.7 Single Unit Truck
3 Door/2 Door Hatchback 1,882 3.3 (10,000 lb < GVWR ≤ 19,500 lb) 165 0.3
4 Door Sedan Hardtop 16,235 28.6 Single Unit Truck
5 Door/4 Door Hatchback 473 0.8 (19,500 lb < GVWR ≤ 26,000 lb) 249 0.4
Station Wagon 1,066 1.9 Single Unit Heavy Truck
Hatchback, Doors Unknown 45 0.1 (GVWR > 26,000 lb) 863 1.5
Other Auto 105 0.2 Single Unit Truck, Unknown GVWR 48 0.1
Unknown Auto 469 0.8 Truck Tractor 3,554 6.2
Auto-Based Pickup 67 0.1 Unknown Medium Truck
(10,000 lb < GVWR ≤ 26,000 lb) 5 *
Light Trucks 19,217 33.8 Unknown Heavy Truck
Compact Utility 3,460 6.1 (GVWR > 26,000 lb) 6 *
Large Utility 677 1.2 Unknown Large Truck Type 23 *
Utility Station Wagon 346 0.6 Unknown Truck 1 *
Utility, Unknown Body Type 16 *
Minivan 2,257 4.0 Motorcycles 2,324 4.1
Large Van 1,403 2.5 Motorcycle 2,215 3.9
Step Van 68 0.1 Moped 33 0.1
Van-Based School Bus 5 * Three Wheel Motorcycle or Moped 2 *
Van-Based Transit Bus 6 * Off-Road Motorcycle (Two Wheel) 40 0.1
Other Van Type 16 * Other Motorcycle/Minibike 30 0.1
Unknown Van Type 58 0.1 Unknown Motorcycle 4 *
Compact Pickup 4,252 7.5
Standard Pickup 6,383 11.2 Buses 285 0.5
Pickup with Camper 43 0.1 School Bus 111 0.2
Convertible Pickup 2 * Cross Country/Intercity Bus 37 0.1
Unknown Pickup Style Truck 122 0.2 Transit Bus 115 0.2
Cab Chassis-Based Light Truck 86 0.2 Other Bus 15 *
Other Conventional Light Truck 1 * Unknown Bus 7 *
Unknown Light Truck (not pickup) 6 *
Unknown Light Vehicle Type 7 * Other Vehicles 450 0.8
Unknown Truck 3 * Large Limousine 5 *
Van-Based Motorhome 30 0.1
Light Truck-Based Motorhome 2 *
Large Truck-Based Motorhome 24 *
Unknown Truck Camper/Motorhome 40 0.1
All Terrain Vehicle 149 0.3
Snowmobile 46 0.1
Farm Equipment Except Trucks 84 0.1
Construction Equipment Except Trucks 22 *
Other Vehicle 48 0.1
Unknown Body Type 662 1.2
Total 56,865 100.0

[Joe Camper]

This thread sure got everyones blood flowing didn't it

Rest assured that the spinless burocrats that put all this crap up for legeslation in the name of safty will not ever go here because all they are about is power and control.  They will not mess with this industry because they precive it as mostly made up of older folks who DO VOTE and getting elected and reelected is paramount to everything to most of them.

[Van]

Bus!

[rv_safetyman]

It makes me so SAD that a very large number of threads degrade to a rant about our government. 

It doesn't seem to matter who is in office or what arm of the government folks are discussing - the hatred of government seems to bubble out like some witches cauldron.  I feel almost ashamed that I am a citizen of a country where a large segment of our citizens are filled with what seems like vomit spilling out of their hands and hitting the keyboards.

Sure I understand that we all have a right to say whatever we want.  Sure I understand that we have problems.  But I just wish that somehow folks could find something good to say about our country and not "spit" on every person trying to help run this country. 

Sorry, but on a day where we morn the huge loss of Americans, my thoughts are distracted and I am overwhelmed by the unbelievable hatred for our government.

This thread had some pretty good discussion about the safe operation of our buses, but that is all lost now.

Jim

[cody]

Personally I feel that there are enough laws to protect me from myself now, I believe I'm intelligent enough to know if I step on the brake pedal and the bus keeps going that I will realize I need to work on my brakes, I'm also smart enough to know if I get in a bike wreck and am not wearing a helmet I may bash my head around a bit and get hurt, for generations we were given the benefit of the doubt, then lawyers realized they could profit from litigating things that would never have gotten as far as a court room in the past and away we went. So now we look to the government to provide the common sence that we used to possess, we legislate things like the temperature of hot water, if it scalds I'm smart enough to wait for it to cool, I don't need some wiser than me senator saying that water should be no warmer than 105F or 109F, I feel there are far better things they could be doing like being pampered by the special interest groups so they can fund their next vacation or home. Shouldn't they have to get a job when they get out of office like the rest that become unemployed, do they need a pension after 2 years that equals or exceeds that of major corporate executives that spend their entire lives plundering the pockets of their workers.  Please stop protecting me from myself, I promise to try not to hurt myself or my neighbors, there is nothing i can do about the idiots that will continue to ignore common sence or laws, I'll just try to avoid them.

[artvonne]

  I havnt read anything here of people angry with our Government. But there is a strong feeling in many Americans that weve had enough laws and rules and regulations put in force against us and we simply dont want any more. Some of us actually want a lot less of the ones we have, and some of our Brothers to North who are Governed by a Queen feel we should have as many laws as they do.

  But today everyones thoughts and feeling are somewhere else. We all lost a great deal of our rights and freedoms this day, Nine years ago. Lets try not to lose anymore if we can help it.

[belfert]

Personally I feel that there are enough laws to protect me from myself now, I believe I'm intelligent enough to know if I step on the brake pedal and the bus keeps going that I will realize I need to work on my brakes, I'm also smart enough to know if I get in a bike

A scenario like this is the exact reason why the government would want to regulate RVs.  A commercial vehicle operator is supposed to check their brakes very often.  They are also not supposed to operate if the brakes are not up to snuff.

We should be finding serious brake problems before we notice the vehicle isn't stopping properly anymore.  Do you really want to hit someone in a crosswalk or rear end a vehicle because your brakes weren't working?

Now, I am not advocating the government regulate RVs like commercial vehicles.  This is just one reason they might want to do so.  Too many people expect the government to pass a new law every time an accident happens.  Sometimes accidents happen and we need to live with it.