Series 60 Engine Problem, Major, I think

[RichardEntrekin]

I guess it's my turn.

I'll make a long story short. The coolant is bubbling vigorously anytime the engine is running.  The surge tank is pressurized when the engine is stopped. All temps, oil pressure, and boost is perfectly normal. The engine does drag when cranking like it may be hydrolocking. Draining a quart of oil from the sump shows a trace of coolant, perhaps a teaspoon.

We were 120 miles from home when I discovered this. We were camped in the WV hinterlands, no shops, no tow trucks, and high in the hills. I fretted for two days on what to do. Based on the low coolant in the sump, I crossed my fingers and drove it home. It made it without incident. May never crank again, but it's home.

All temps on the VMSpc are normal, oil pressure is norm, boost is norm. Engine has the same power it always had. Runs great after it cranks. It does stumble for a few seconds when it cranks. No smoke from the exhaust.

I think I am about to learn a lot more about the Series 60 internals. My guess is a breached cylinder liner or a cracked head.  I would love to hear your thoughts. I would also like to hear your thoughts on what I can do to prediagnose the problem.


I'll be looking for a shop near Huntington WV to look at this. If you know of anyone you trust, please let me know

[Zeroclearance]

Richard, I think that you have a head gasket issue or a liner failure.   Cracked or sunk cylinder liner will give you the same symtoms.   Usually with a head gasket you will be pushing your coolant out of the "cap"    A cracked or sunk liner oring will be at a slower rate.   

I'd start planning for a inframe.    How many miles do you have on the engine?   DDEC 3?

[rv_safetyman]

Richard, not a lot of fun is it?  My Series 60 problem was a bit like yours.  The surge tank on an Eagle is pressurized anytime the engine is at temperature.  My symptom was that I kept loosing antifreeze.  I thought it was from a small leak.  I finally put a catch bottle on the surge tank overflow and got kind of a gray color antifreeze.  It was obvious that the gray color came from exhaust getting into the coolant system.

In my case, it was a problem with the liners receding into the block.  That happens with Series 60s at times I am told.  I did not get any antifreeze in the oil.

When we tore the engine down, it was pretty bad.  The heat from the exhaust getting by the head gasket had overheated a head bolt and it broke.  Lots of evidence of the liners receding.

About the only thing you can look for is exhaust pollution in the antifreeze.  

No matter what, you will need to tear down the engine.  Probably best to have it removed for the work.

I took my engine to a DD shop (Sewart Stevenson) and hoped that I could get by with a step 1 or step 2 rebuild per the http://detroitdieselstepup.com/whystepup.asp program.  Turned out my quote was $18K.  

I replaced the engine with one from a salvage yard.  I checked the history of that engine and felt about as comfortable as I could that it would give me good service.  Salvage yard engines are always a gamble.

Jim

[RichardEntrekin]

Thanks for the replies.

I was figuring cracked head, blown head gasket, or cracked/pitted liner. All requireing some level of serious engine work.

Yep, it's not going to be cheap.

105,000 miles on the engine. Shouldn't have done this strictly on the mileage, but time is time.

[luvrbus]

To bad Richard with you starting the engine and it trying to lockup you can bank on some lower end problems also,probably caused from the head bolts never being upgraded 

good luck

[Handyjim]

From someone who's been looking toward a series 60 when (NOT if) I get my bus, how can you prevent this problem?

[Zeroclearance]

I think that Clifford has hit it on the head with the lack of updated head bolts..

[robertglines1]

updated head bolts? from what year back?  I have a 2000 ddec IV....Bob

[Zeroclearance]

Bob you are okay..   BTW, there is a new MAP sensor upgrade for "our" engines..   It requires a ECU Eprom reflash.   I got mine done under warranty.    The result was .2 mpg better!!!   

[robertglines1]

whew   good news    I needed that   thanks   Bob

[RichardEntrekin]

Clifford,

Not asking you to diagnose what may or may not have happened to the mains and rods, but it didn't "lock up", it just turned over slowly for about 1 rev like the batteries were weak and then it fired right off.

Who is to say how much coolant in the oil is too much? I guess we are going to find out when the pan is dropped.

But that may be a couple of months. I just can't have this problem right now. Starting a new job, sellling a house in Texas, buying one here, and moving the household stuff all in the next month. I just can't have this problem right now, so in the storage yard it will have to wait.

Let me check some logic with you. If the head bolt stretch is the culprit and the gasket is blown? Is the fix as straightfoward check the liners, new gasket, and new bolts? I think also to drop the pan and look at the mains.

This is good. I expected the folks with know how to weigh in.

[rv_safetyman]

Clifford's first post on head bolts sent me on a convoluted search for something like a TSB or something.  Could not find anything.

Looked at my '96 service manual and no mention of different head bolts.  Found an '04 PDF version of the head installation ( http://www.ddcsn.com/cps/rde/xbcr/ddcsn/6-60-04a.pdf ) and it does mention a change in 2002.  

Anyone have a better handle on when the change was made?

My first Series 60 was a '96, so I would guess I had the "old style" head bolts.  May have contributed to the problem.  The replacement engine is a '99 rebuilt in '05 by a DD dealer, so I would guess that I am OK.

Jim

BTW, I think Clifford's comment on the bottom end referred to the possibility of a hydraulic lock (from liquid in the cylinder) bending a rod.  The "lock" can be slight and the bend would not be very significant - must be addressed though.  Since you drove it a ways, the bearings I would think the bearings would show signs of a bent rod.

[luvrbus]

Jim,Davenport said a new upgraded head gasket, bolts and washers was released in Sept 2002 the new bolts are white on the bolt head.  


He seems to think Richard just blew the old style head gasket and they can check for a bent rod from the top with a dial indicator he does have few concerns about Richard driving the unit also the head will need to be resurfaced according to him it should be a 2000 to 2500 bill for the upgrade if he doesn't have head or other engine damages


good luck

[belfert]

If I have a 1995 Series 60 11.1L should I be replacing the head bolts?  I think if I was diving that deep into the engine I would try to find a 12.7L to slap in my bus instead.

[RichardEntrekin]

As I do my homework and consider the options, I have a few basic questions.

Do you have any opinion on the DD supplied rebuild kits vs aftermarket kits? It appears the after market is about 2/3 the cost of DD supplied parts?

Would I be correct in that the logical sequence is to remove the head, check for cracks or blown gasket, sunken liners, and or cracked liners? Also drop pan and look at a couple of bearings to see if they are damaged?

So, if the only damage is blown head gasket, then the fix is surface the head, replace gasket and head bolts?

If the bearings are scuffed or galled, can they be rolled in like car engine? i.e. without removing the crank?

What special tools are required to do a rebuild?

Thanks