Heating: Using everything available and heating everything needed.

[Chaz]

OK, let's see what ya think of me NOW!!     lololol

I'm at it again. As you guys well know, and as the song says, "One thing leads to another". It's amazing how many things I am working on actually come down to a hot water heater, of all things. (my cabinet where it's going to be, my interior heating, even my freekin paint job as I want to relocate the hole in the outside if I use - actually, "build" - a propane heater).

I'm trying to be efficient and utilize what I can. I have your basic propane-hole in the outside wall- heater and I was thinking of combining that with a hot water coil from the engine and even have a hydronic heating loop in said tank. I could even go so far as to plumb in the coolant from the generator for more heat. Plus, just to muck up my brain a bit more, I have older propane instant hot water heaters from a car wash I own. Altho I'm not sure those are viable. They are just a thought. So I'm looking at a wide gambit of stuff. OH!! And Charlie Davidson gave me an electric hot water heater from an RV. So I got some stuff to pick from.  

I know, I know, I'm ate up. But I was born with this disease of "creativity" and I just can't help myself.   (funny, but true) And to come up with something that NOT only benefits me but others is the pinnacle for me.

I always wanted a Webasto or Proheat but the Treasury Dept says nope. Create something.   So this is my thought. I can build a stainless tank, easy enough, with loops from the engine and generator running thru it and also do a propane burner in the conventional hot water heater manner, in that tank,  for when they aren't running. Inline thermostats can control the temps. The water in the actual tank will be potable, so to speak. Then on top of all that, have yet another loop inside for hydronic heating. Flat plate heat exchangers will be involved where they can as they do a really nice job of exchanging.

Sounds pretty crazy, huh.   I know. I will have to put plenty of thought into it and maybe it won't even work, but I thought I'd fire it past my "brain trust" - you guys - for some initial thoughts. Safety will obviously be important for whatever loop or use, so please don't bother busting my balls over that. But always glad to know if there is something you are aware of that can help in that department.

Like I said, I always strive to be efficient, I am a slave to creating (truly I can't help myself  ) and I figure if it works, it might be able to benefit someone else. So what do you guys think? I know some of you are a wealth of experience and knowledge!! I don't necessarily like recreating the mousetrap, except when my demented mind thinks there is a good reason to do so. This, to me, is one.
New Thought!!!!! - It would be like my Xantrex 4024 only for hot water! 

Thanx for your time reading!
 Chaz  (man am I glad I went to college for welding/fabrication!!   )

p.s. read the quote below from one of my idol's and you will see how I live my life.    

[TomC]

Chaz- I'm one for simplicity and reliability. On my bus my only propane appliances are the stove and furnace.  My water heaters are electric. Two 10 gal straight electric (no coolant coil) from Home Depot with one feeding into the next with the final one powered through the inverter to have hot water while driving. In the 16 years since starting this project, I used one of the water heaters for my after work shower-so they have been in use since 1994.  In fact, of all the appliances I have on my bus, I've only had to replace one-and that was the propane furnace-and that was because I left it on for two weeks.  The fan ran continuously and just plainly beat itself to death.  But-spending $500.00 on a new furnace, and it being the only interior servicing is pretty good. Just compare that to ALL the posts of problems that are had with Aqua Hot or Webasto type hydronic heating systems. Good Luck, TomC

[steve wardwell]

KISS

[robertglines1]

a 45 minute warm up of my electric hot water heater provides comfortable shower up to 18 hrs later 10 gal elect 2400 watt element...fyi--showers for three..Bob from Evansvile In

[oldmansax]

Chaz,

I don't see why it wouldn't work. I have thought along the same lines except using a condensing gas heater for efficiency when stopped. I just don't have time to pursue it.

As long as you keep all the circuits separate and valve things off so a failure in one system won't affect the others. it should work.

I say, "Have at it!"   

TOM

[Chaz]

Thanx guys. I too am a big KISS method fan. But unfortunately, I am also interested in finding "better" ways. (It's a disease.  ) But even with my "creating", I do my level best to KISS.

And I guess this really does just seem simple to me, and efficient. At least the idea of heating the hot water heater with engine coolant. If I do nothing more than that, I think it will be a nice plus. But as far as heating the coach with hot water, I will think about that a little more. I may not have that loop run into the water heater. Less transfer issues. But I want to do it in some way as I don't have any permanent heaters in the bus and hot water has been heating vehicles forever. I still have the Model A radiator shell I have been thinking about putting a radiator in with fan and mounting it in the bus. I'm just having a hard time with where to put it. So it could be hot water to air or hydronic... just not sure. I installed and have my home heated with hydronic and altho that's a bit of a different animal, I absolutely love it and would never build another building without it. If you ever try it, you'll see why. It is by far the most comfortable and truly KISS.

The PO put a 1" layer of plywood over my original floor so I was contemplating taking a circular saw and cutting a swath out down the walkway and installing it there. It would definitely be easy enough but, really, the heat "should" be more at the exterior walls. But it would probably be OK. And the other thing is I would like to strip that 1" plywood out completely so I could get another inch of head room. It would make a difference to me as I am "right there"!!!

I have propane on my bus but would prefer not to. The electric has been an option except I like the quickness of propane. But if I create my own electric heater and run the coolant thru it, that becomes more of a moot point. The only other reason I was leaning towards propane is because I will ALWAYS have a grill. (I made a neat one for my bus from a beer "pony keg" and a grill a friend of mine was throwing out. I even made a griddle for making breakfast on it.  ) So for that reason, I thought I'd go with propane. But electric would save cutting another hole in the bus but somehow I have to find some bus skin to weld back into the existing hole. MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Does it ever end??!!??!!??!!??     (nope and that's what I like......sorta.  )

Then, if I am going to do a coolant loop in it, I could run a coolant line from my Gen and have hot water anytime it was running. And maybe that isn't a big deal but I'm not sure how much of a draw I can put on my Gen. all at once. I just installed a 7.5 kw and with 2 AC's fridge, etc., I'm not sure what I can do. Jerry L. has been a infinite amount of help with that sort of thing, I may have to bug him yet again.  Sorry Jerry. 

Thanx again guys! It's just soooooo cool to have a bunch of like minded knowledgeable folks to have to bounce things off of.

  Have a good one,
    Chaz

[belfert]

The issue with electric heat is the amount of power required.  You're either going to pretty much need a decent generator or a 50 amp connection to heat a bus with electric.  I used two 1,500 watt heaters and they were not enough at 25 degrees outside.  Two 1,500 watt heaters would work on a 30 amp connection, but not if you have other power needs.

[TomC]

Electric heating is pretty inefficient. That's why I use the propane 35,000btu/hr furnace (Atwood).  A 1,500 watt electric heater makes about 5,300btu/hr.  Using that formula, a 35,000btu/hr electric heater would consume 9,900 watts of electricity!  I like using simple RV appliances that are readily available at any RV store (so long as they aren't too cheaply made-which the propane furnaces are pretty well made).  To combat the dangers of propane, my stove and furnace are right next to each other with the chassis mount propane tank directly under to make the gas lines short-and I have an electric solenoid valve with the switch inside to cut the gas flow when not using.  Plus a CO gas detector across the aisle from the stove and furnace.  Good Luck, TomC

[JohnEd]

I think you will be running your gen much more in the summer and during that period yuo want to shed heat rather than"use it".  I would plumb the gen coolant into the bus rad and put a small elect fan n the rad to exchange heat when it runs for a long time in hot weather.  One less big fan and quiet(er) operation.

You want to capture wasted energy?  Find somehow to use the WASTED HOT EXHAUST from the heater/furnace.  If you were to cut the flame by 3/4 then the air coming out the ex would be tepid.  Size of the furnace in terms of BTU's would be 1/4.....but really efficient.  I wanted to explore the use of a much much larger "hot box" air to air heat ex to achieve efficiency and reduce propane costs.  Those are really low, by the way.

Good luck and keep those ideas coming. (no joke)

John....your fellow traveler

[Chaz]

I think you will be running your gen much more in the summer and during that period you want to shed heat rather than"use it".  I would plumb the gen coolant into the bus rad and put a small elect fan n the rad to exchange heat when it runs for a long time in hot weather.  One less big fan and quiet(er) operation.

So the generator pump has enough s**t to push the water from the gen to the big rad. and back?? Wow. I'm just not sure I want to go that far with that tho. Especially since I just got done putting the gen. in and all I had to do to shoe horn it in. If it does have the s**t to push it that far I could always tap into my defrost line to the front but that is what I wanted to tap for the coolant in the water heater. I already have the taps done, but only one set. I'll have to draw it up and see.

I worked on a design of a more efficient hot water heater for my house that i never got finished. Hot water heaters, basically, look at efficiency as how much insulation they have around them. In my house, where the hot water heater works much harder, it will run a LOT more than a regular home (since I heat my whole house with it at night and it also takes care of all my hot water needs). So I wanted to design one that was more efficient at heat transfer into the water. Basically, more surface area of water to the heated tubes or walls and "mixers" (twisted thin wall strips breaking up the heated air in the tubes) keeping the hot air hitting the walls. (I've had a little "schoolin" in that area.  ) That was also an underlying reason for wanting to make my own water heater for the bus.

Charley emailed me and told me the water heater he gave me is one that has the heat exchanger already in it for coolant heat. I gotta tell ya, That makes that little jewel even more appealing!! 

I'll be honest, the more I look at different things, the more I go back and forth. My head thinks I'm in a tennis match.    But, I'll keep working at it. I do like suggestions tho!! 

Chaz

[JohnEd]

So the generator pump has enough s**t to push the water from the gen to the big rad. and back?? Wow. I'm just not sure I want to go that far with that tho. Especially since I just got done putting the gen. in and all I had to do to shoe horn it in. If it does have the s**t to push it that far I could always tap into my defrost line to the front but that is what I wanted to tap for the coolant in the water heater. I already have the taps done, but only one set. I'll have to draw it up and see.

Chaz,

It didn't occur to me that the gen might be at the front of the bus and the engine rad in the rear.  The hose would have to equal the size of that on the gen radiator for that to stand a prayer.  With the proper size hose I think it would work fine with 10 feet or so.  Longer than that and I would want someone with eng smarts to bless the idea.  You do have a temp gauge and over temp shutdown to protect the gen.

john


[/quote]

[Chaz]

Thanx John.
Yeah, my gen is right behind the driver. I think I'll let it the way it is for now. I'm finally enjoying both AC's at one time now.  What a treat!!
But if i were to tie it to the water heater, it wouldn't have to go far.
  Thanx again,
     Chaz

[Chaz]

OK, I have been giving this some serious thought lately and this is what seems to me to be the best idea. But, as always, I still want to hear from you guys, either way, if you have an opinion. Kind of like what is known as a "Continuous Improvement Event" at the local factories that I have been part of. (Some one from a Continuous Improvement Business heads up people from all aspects of the company and crunches ideas to solve problems or just make things better with ideas from all view points.)

My thoughts:

I think I am going to go with a 10 gal. tank. I like propane for a couple reasons but I think I'm going with electric in this situation albeit less efficient. I'm figuring on two heat exchange loops - one from the motor and one from the gen. My feeling is, when I am driving, I will get - let's call it "Free" - heat. 10 gallons is a decent amount. Then, if I am on the "pole" I'm not overly worried about the electricity which I am already paying for. Not exactly "free", but.... oh well. Then, if I am boondocking, the gen. is supplying the heat from it's coolant, whereby it is "free". But if I need hot water when on the batteries, then I will be "paying for it". But, if my batteries are low and I have to start the gen., it will also heat the water, via the coolant, whereby not using much electricity. Savvy??  (I love the Pirates of The Carribean!  )

I am going to leave the hydronics out of it for bus heating. It doesn't seem to be a great idea.

So, I just need to make a 10 gallon, stainless steel, electric water heater with off the shelf parts and put in two heating loops that are separate and close-able.  (reason for actually building it myself is so I can be efficient in my space used, plus,  I don't think there are double hydronic heating loops in electric heaters. At least not that I know of.)

The benefits are that I get rid of yet another propane issue and rarely use any electricity to heat the water.

The drawbacks are creating good flowing loops of coolants for whatever situation. Flow volume is obviously important for the motors used. Thermostats can be used on the "otherside" of the tank to control the temp in the tank if necessary, but I need to keep adequate flow at all times for the motors. I say this as I am a little concerned with the temp of the coolant vs. the temp I want coming out of the faucet. I guess I could post a sign - for ME - to be careful of the hot water coming out. But having "hotter" hot water would make it last longer in the shower. 

OK, that explanation, however vague, just took me 45 mins. to type.    (wish I could type) But, hopefully you get the gist. Any thoughts, comments, ideas, things I haven't taken into consideration, etc?? Think this is a good enough idea for a company to consider making such a model??

Thanx for taking the time..........
  Chaz

[buswarrior]

Ok, SAFETY FIRST! Pay whatever money is necessary to get a mixing valve to prevent scalding from the hot water tap. These mix in enough cold water with your piping hot 180 degree hot water to get it down to safe levels.

After your tap has permanently marked a child with a burn, your sign won't salve those wounds.

Next, think of the hot water tank loop the same as a heater core in your car, it is not inline with the radiator, it is a branch circuit that does not effect the engine/radiator relationship.

Plumb the hot water tank the same way.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[Len Silva]

Rather than building your own, I think I would just buy an inexpensive 10 gallon electric heater, strip it down and wrap it with copper tubing.  You could make as many loops as you wished.  No risk of contamination of your potable water and relatively easy to do.  I believe that is how the "Motor-Aid" heater in my MH is done.  You could use a thermal transfer compound to improve the heat transfer.