propane injection

[kyle4501]

Asking how a propane system works or how to install one is how to promote discussion & gain knowledge.

But to start a thread in the way this one was . . .  seems the intention was to promote division & animosity. (Oh look, it worked!    )

Also seems some delight in division & fanning the flames of controversy all under the guise of 'learning'.
But, that is only my opinion & as many know, ain't worth the time spent to read it. 


Concerning the viability of using propane injection on diesel engines -
Sure it 'works', but if it was commercially viable & economical, it would be standard equipment on ALL heavy equipment.

So, why don't more people use this/ these systems if they "work"? I believe the answer lies in the fact that its true benefits are usefull only in limited applications AND that different people approach things from different angles. These 'power alternatives' work best for a certain mindset (just like converting your own bus works better than buying a factory job for some). Some like the extra 'tinkering'. However, for most people, the added 'benefit' isn't worth the added 'cost' ($$, time, effort, etc).

You will also find it difficult to find a shop that will add propane injection to your bus & back it with a warranty. That alone is more than enough to deter most. 

Over on the yahoo detroit diesel group, there was a lengthy discussion on this several years ago. There was at least one of them that unintentionally grenaded their 2-stroke with propane injection.

A 2-stroke has a very different intake system than a 4-stroke, which can lend itself to unkind results. Propane will not burn if it is too lean, the airbox explosion can only happen if the air/ fuel ratio is within certain limits. Don't misunderstand, the grenade scenario is unlikely, but definitely remains a possibility.

Usage is also similar to WVO in that you aren't using a "standard" fuel.
Adding propane to a diesel is similar to adding NOx to a car (similar, not same) in that you have a means of using extra fuel added to the engine for those situations when more power is needed.
   

[JohnEd]

Kyle,

In accord with board/forum policy, I have sent you a PM on this matter.

your post quote:

Asking how a propane system works or how to install one is how to promote discussion & gain knowledge.

But to start a thread in the way this one was . . .  seems the intention was to promote division & animosity. (Oh look, it worked!  Roll Eyes  Shocked )

Also seems some delight in division & fanning the flames of controversy all under the guise of 'learning'.
But, that is only my opinion & as many know, ain't worth the time spent to read it.  Wink

Thank you,

John

[JohnEd]

Concerning the viability of using propane injection on diesel engines -
Sure it 'works', but if it was commercially viable & economical, it would be standard equipment on ALL heavy equipment.

That seems a good point...on the surface of it.  In my humility  would concede that the Heavy Equipment operators/Mfrs might have motives and considerations that I am not aware of. Still, a good point.

So, why don't more people use this/ these systems if they "work"? I believe the answer lies in the fact that its true benefits are usefull only in limited applications AND that different people approach things from different angles. These 'power alternatives' work best for a certain mindset (just like converting your own bus works better than buying a factory job for some). Some like the extra 'tinkering'. However, for most people, the added 'benefit' isn't worth the added 'cost' ($$, time, effort, etc).

I don't think mind set determines the viability. Numbers get in the way of hunches or per pref every time. But I think I follow the gist of your comment and I am not at odds with it.

You will also find it difficult to find a shop that will add propane injection to your bus & back it with a warranty. That alone is more than enough to deter most.

The warranty angle doesn't hold for me.  Absolutely not a single thing I do carries a warranty.  I do look for them in others work when I can get it though, but it isn't the overriding factor for me. 

Over on the yahoo detroit diesel group, there was a lengthy discussion on this several years ago. There was at least one of them that unintentionally grenaded their 2-stroke with propane injection.

A 2-stroke has a very different intake system than a 4-stroke, which can lend itself to unkind results. Propane will not burn if it is too lean, the airbox explosion can only happen if the air/ fuel ratio is within certain limits. Don't misunderstand, the grenade scenario is unlikely, but definitely remains a possibility.

Just knowing that is a possible outcome is a treasure of info all by itself.  Food for thought..maybe...reason to do more research?  Most certainly.

Usage is also similar to WVO in that you aren't using a "standard" fuel.
Adding propane to a diesel is similar to adding NOx to a car (similar, not same) in that you have a means of using extra fuel added to the engine for those situations when more power is needed

I think Don summed up your comments in this regard when he said "bottom line, propane injection is a toy".  More power seems the only persistent motive so I guess the question is "Wanna Play?"  You gotta get a YES out of a significant minority.

Thank you for these comments, Kyle

John
   

[TomC]

A smoke turbo is a turbocharger that is added to a non turbocharged engine.  Typically it will only put out around 5psi, and you keep the same injectors.  Then your performance will be the same at sea level and at high altitudes, where you would normally get lots of smoke.  If you're going to the high Sierras, like over 5,000ft, then a smoke turbo is good.

On my 8V-71, since I had the two piece pistons with tight transit rings, we added a 12.7 Series 60 turbo with waste gate to keep the boost under 15psi (most turbo engines run in the 25psi range), only went to 75 injectors, added the air to air intercooler in front of the radiator, and installed the bypass valve on the blower.  It is truly amazing the difference in performance.  Fuel mileage is about the same, but with the better performance, and no more smoking at high altitudes, the fuel mileage of 5-6mpg is just fine by me.  Good Luck, TomC

[Bill B /bus]

Propane injection for diesel engines has been done since the early 60's, at least. Based on personal knowledge of having seen the results of propane addition. Used to be called a 'topper'. As in you would top the hill. In the old days, pre turbo, when a 318 Detroit was king of the hill, the black smoke would pour out stack pulling a grade. Put the grade up high like Denver and the smoke got a lot worse.
So picture being about third in line pulling a big Rockies hill. when the guy in front of you suddenly has a clear stack and he pulls out and passes. That's when I learned about 'toppers' at the next truck stop.
Now as to application . Bully Dog used to make and install a system. Really useful of non turbo engines.
Theory of operation:propane gas at about 10% tends to increase fuel burn and lengthen the flame time. That leads to a more complete combustion.
George, left coast Sacramento area, run this system on his 4106. Worked well and reduced his heating problems on the big hills and his speed for higher.

Bill

[kyle4501]

Seems some of my previous post needs some explanation

Kyle,

In accord with board/forum policy, I have sent you a PM on this matter.

John

john,
Since you advertised the PM here, I'll respond here (to let others see there is no hidden agenda), I have no problems other than, in your words, "muddled judgment" & "juvenile behavior".


My post was directed at all in an effort to remind the real goal here – heightened understanding & shared opinions.
I started with a suggestion concerning how to get the information desired without starting something undesired. Given recent 'developments', this seemed topical. It was followed by a simple observation of how your initial post could be interpreted (& was by some).

My apologies if you're disappointed & also to those who wasted the popcorn.

[Utahclaimjumper]

Looks like there is a new "sheriff" in town, who obviously needs to grow thicker skin to be active on a Rough and tumble board that I have been a member of, and a contributor to, for 15 years. I recently sold my 06 that has had a "propane mixing" system used on every trip for 13 years with no problems. ( The left coast guy was George Lawry, had a 903 Cummins with a Bullydog system, mine was an 8V71-A timed-N65 injectors NA. Hill climbing was fantastic with propane mixing)     Goodbuy,       no need for me to return.>>>Dan

[DMoedave]

Well, there is the authority! Archives and look for Jumper's posts. I can undrstand how he must feel. everytime someone asks about propane injction, folks with opinions jump in and stomp it out! Kinda sucks that we cant let the ones who have the experience share.  Claim Jumper, hope you are still coaching, someday we are going to make it out West!

[JohnEd]

Well, Utah put us straight on to the most informative site for the propane issue.  That would be: http://www.bullydogparts.com/Bully_Dog_Diesel_Propane_Injection_Kit_p/10800.htm  Thanks for that, Utah.  And you reference to George Lawry is a good steer,as well.

$680 for the kit and we already have the tankage on board.  I really have to wonder that your local fork lift repair shop can't glance at that video and hand you the parts for $100.  I'll take that for action and get back.  There is a forklift shop a mile from my home that I have done business with and they should help me with the procurement issues.  Till then.

Thanks to all those that provided info and comment

I don't think I understand all that about thin skin....who left where what? I am though only mostly in public.

John