The Questions Begin

[Slow Rider]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the responses and the e-mails I have received.  I have been reading and learning but I have a couple of questions
that I have not found the answer to yet.

1.  Several posts have mentioned not slipping the clutch, but they never say,  why is this such a taboo?  I know  it is not good to
     excessively slip a clutch even in a car but it seems especially ominus from what I am gleaning.

2.  Why can't you use a regular house toilet? You have plumbing and water.

3.  Other than weight and workability, what makes stainless or aluminum or plastic a better choice for holding/waste tanks?

4.  I have been contacted by someone who reads the board and they have a bus for sale.  What questions should I be asking?

5.  Is there a checklist of sorts I should be using when I start looking at buses?  ( I guesss more specifically the 4106's)

6.  As I understand it, the 4104/06's came with a four speed non synco transmission.  The usual swap is an auto trans.
     Is there a another manual that will give better mileage or power ratio choices, such as a six or ten speed? 

     Thanks for you time and your knowledge,

                   Frank

[Hartley]

Well, I will jump in on part of what you asked...

Clutches used in Bus applications are very very very expensive to replace or repair. Unlike
the ones used in dump trucks the bus versions just won't handle much abuse.

House type toilets are a no-no when you have a vehicle that moves. They also use huge amounts
of water like 1.5 gallon per flush. An RV toilet is less than a quart per flush.
Tank type toilets store the water above the toilet. subject to sloshing out and making a huge
mess. They also are not structurally designed for anything that moves or flexes like an RV.
House toilets also do not meet RV standards along with all the other afflictions that they bring.

On any bus that has the engine mounted across the back end you have two transmission choices.
Either the stock standard ( aka Spicer or other ) 4-speed non-synchro manual shift.
Or an Automatic 2 or 3 speed such as a VS2 or a V-730 Allison which is 3 speeds with lockup torque converter.
Modifying a bus that had a v-drive manual is a major mechanical job and usually requires some serious
structural changes along with changes to the engine hookups, coolers, struts and lots of labor.

If you are thinking of a Bus with a T-drive engine placement your transmission options are only limited by
the depth of your pocket and space available to stuff a larger transmission into the available space.

Holding Tanks: Whew that's gonna be a tough answer. Some people that have the ingenuity, cash
and space to mount custom tanks use aluminum or stainless tanks. Aluminum is probably not a good
idea due to corrosive salts in human waste and waste water. They will crud up and look nasty in time.
They are expensive too. Stainless tanks are great if you have the time and money and a place to mount it.

The tendancy is more towards Spin Molded tanks ( Plastic ) which are available in almost any size and fairly
inexpensive to buy. They usually are fairly easy to work with and will hold up to vibration and waste products.
Easy to clean and modify. Plastic tanks used for fresh water last a long time, are easy to disinfect and are
not as sensitive to possible freeze damage as metal tanks would be.

Anyway... Everyone has their own ideas on these topics.

I like Plastic tanks and RV toilets and Automatic Transmissions. Someone coined the phrase " Stomp & Steer "
and that's just my opinion...

[oldmansax]

Hello Frank

I can't help with the other questions but #1 & #6 are somewhat related. Most highway buses are geared rather high. That makes starting from a dead stop harder; hence, rev the engine and "slipping the clutch" is the easy way to start the bus rolling. That practice soon wears the clutch discs out, sometimes warping and damaging the pressure plate and/or flywheel. The proper procedure is to carefully release the clutch while the engine is idling. On occasion, such as when on an incline, that is not possible and you may have to rev the engine a little to get the bus rolling. Try to minimize those occurances. Each one wears the clutch. Eventually you will have to replace it.

By replacing the 4 speed tranny with a 6, 8, 10, or even a 13 speed, you have a lower gear to start in, thereby minimizing clutch wear. An 8 or 10 speed really shines in reverse.  If the replacement is an overdrive transmission, you can keep the engine RPMs lower at highway speeds, all other factors being equal.

There are a lot more factors involved but this is a simple, short explanation of a complicated subject.

Obviously, the auto negates the clutch & solves those problems.

I hope this has made it at least as clear as mud! 

Happy double-clutching!

TOM

[Beatenbo]

Clutch jobs usually run 1,000-2,000 parts and labor. I have always avoided slipping clutch and never park  or stop where I start on an incline or try backing up a hill....Already been posted and saod on toilets and tanks.

My 4106 days were back in the early 80s, but more so today because of age the bulkhead behind the  engine would be a major concen. You can look at clearance between the two. I don't remember the distance, 3 or 4 inches. I have seen engines removed to weld and re enforce. That holds the engine and tran weight and can sag and cause problems from chatter, vibration, shifting at the least.

[Kristinsgrandpa]

I guess there are a lot of opinions out there on your subjects, but what I'm going to tell you is fact. 
House toilets are made that flush with .6 gal of water.  A lot of rv tolilets come with a built in garden hose  to wash out the inside of the bowl to remove the brown stuff.
   By the time you get the bowl clean you have used as much, if not more.

I know several people who have household toilets and not one of them have ever splashed out water from the water closet.  I know this because I asked before I bought my toilet.

If your coach rides that rough it's time to get some serious work done to it.

Ask around, and make up your own mind  based on fact not on assumptions.

Ed

[DrivingMissLazy]

I can assure you that if either my Eagle or my 4104 rode rough enough to splash water out of the toilet there would have been something extremely wrong. I have never heard of anyone actually experiencing that.
Richard

II know several people who have household toilets and not one of them have ever splashed out water from the water closet.  I know this because I asked before I bought my toilet.

If your coach rides that rough it's time to get some serious work done to it.
Ask around, and make up your own mind  based on fact not on assumptions.

Ed

[RobertL]

House toilets are made that flush with .6 gal of water. 
Ed

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you left out a 1 in front of the .6     All the "Normal" household toilets we sell at work are 1.6gpf with a 12"rough.   Which brings me to the question, what "rough-in" dimension do rv toilets have?  I know household toilets can be purchased in 10, 12, and 14" roughs.  I would think a RV toilet would have a smaller "rough-in" dimension due to the fact that there is no tank on the back and the smaller compact space in a RV.

Robert

[Jeremy]

The RV vs house toilet issue is one which I have wondered about myself, mainly because most RV toilets tend to be ugly, utilitarian-looking things which are much more expensive than a typical, stylish, house toilet (the cost differential may not exist in the States, but it does here where the RV parts market is tiny in comparison to yours). I've no idea what 'rough-in' is. Do I need to know to choose a toilet? The water consumption is unlikely to be much of an issue for me as I will never be outside civilisation with the coach for long enough for the toilet to get much use. Besides, you can easily put a block of polystyrene foam or something in the cistern to reduce it's volume, and a regular house toilet will still flush perfectly satisfactorily using half the usual amount of water

Jeremy

[Hartley]

OK,
I guess that there are just people out there that don't understand the why's and where-for's of using a standard
RV style toilet.

1. Valve ~vs~ Trap = ( Odor Control )
2. Space Required to Mount.
3. Slosh Factor ( RV toilets don't slosh ) when you jam on the brakes.
4. Evaporation & Mold Factors in having an unsealed body of water inside a small space that has minimal ventilation.
5. Water consumption issues. If you are hooked up to a large source of water and have large holding tanks or sewer connection-OK.

RV toilets are available in many very nice designs. I chose the Thetford Aria ( all china, large bowl, electronic flush), Sure they cost more. Mine doesn't need a handy spray nozzle and hose because it works fine. There are others like it too.

RV toilets mount directly above the holding tank for a direct drop. If you can't do that then there are Marine Kits that have a built-in macerator pump that can mount anywhere and have a hose to pump to the tank.

If you buy a plastic toilet you get what you pay for. If you base your opinion on the older and much cheaper plastic toilets
you still get what you pay for. A handy dandy can of silicone spray does a nice job of making even a plastic toilet work cleaner
with less needing to spray it down with a hose.

Gawd... The mention of House toilets in buses immediately makes me think of a hippie school bus. Not a Converted Coach!!!

[Jeremy]

"Gawd... The mention of House toilets in buses immediately makes me think of a hippie school bus. Not a Converted Coach!!!"

Horses for courses I guess - personally I would much rather my bus have a bathroom like a house than like an RV.

Can you enlighten me on the 'Valve vs Trap' issue? All the other points I can negate with a little bit of thought

Thanks

Jeremy

[H3Jim]

Jeremy, I too have the Thetford Aria toilet.  It has very clean looks, and is ceramic.  Looks as good or better than a typical house toilet.  Is a little smaller, works better.  Very pleased with it.

[RobertL]

Can you enlighten me on the 'Valve vs Trap' issue? All the other points I can negate with a little bit of thought

Thanks

Jeremy

I'll take a shot at it for ya.  RV toilets have a valve that slides out of the way when you flush the toilet.  Afterward, it slides back in place to block out odors from escaping back into the coach

A household toilet uses water to block out waste gases.   Its the same principle as a "p-trap" on your sinks, but the "p-trap" is built into the base of the toilet in the rear.  Next time your in the bathroom, take a look at your toilet and you will notice the curved pipe in the rear of the base.  That is designed to hold water and keep waste gases to escape back into your bathroom. Over a period of time, and with the new water conservation acts, the gallons per flush has decreased to 1.6.  This meant that in order to get a great flush, the toilet manufacturers had to redesign the toilet and increase the size of the "p-trap" for increased waste removal.  In other words, so your toilet doesnt clog

Heres a trivia question for anyone
Can you flush a household toilet without using the flush handle or taking the lid off the tank? 

Looking at how high the water level gets inside a household toilet tank, I can very well see how it would slosh out at certain times of traveling.  Another point to look at would be the "tank-to-bowl gasket"  and the tank hold down bolts.  If water is allowed to slosh around in the tank, it is very possible for stress cracks to form around the hold down bolts.  Also, the tank-to-bowl gasket could possibly lose its seal and start to leak.  These components are not designed for vibrations of a motorvehicle.

Vibrations would also probably cause the wax ring on a household toilet to break its seal.

These are just thoughts to ponder and I could be entirely incorrect...........

Robert

[Len Silva]

Just to add to the discussion, there is the Sloan Flushmate toilet, uses as low as 1 gpf and doesn't have to be located over the tank.  A quick internet search finds toilets from various manufacturers using this system around $275.00

http://www.flushmate.com/

[FloridaCliff]

Robert said:  Heres a trivia question for anyone
Can you flush a household toilet without using the flush handle or taking the lid off the tank?

Yes, just pour water in the tank.

Thats why I love my pool after a hurricane goes through.  18000 gallons of flushing and bathing water until the power comes back on.

Cliff

[Jeremy]

A household toilet uses water to block out waste gases.   Its the same principle as a "p-trap" on your sinks, but the "p-trap" is built into the base of the toilet in the rear.  Next time your in the bathroom, take a look at your toilet and you will notice the curved pipe in the rear of the base.  That is designed to hold water and keep waste gases to escape back into your bathroom. Over a period of time, and with the new water conservation acts, the gallons per flush has decreased to 1.6.  This meant that in order to get a great flush, the toilet manufacturers had to redesign the toilet and increase the size of the "p-trap" for increased waste removal.  In other words, so your toilet doesnt clog

Ok, thanks for the explaination - but now I have another question (sorry if I am being tedious, but it's the only way I'll learn). A standard house toilet has the 'bend' (what you call the "p-trap") cast into it - so if you were to install it into a bus, the bend would still be there, so the 'water trap' to block odours would still be there as well. So wouldn't it continue to work in exactly the same way as it did were it installed in a house? Or am I being really thick and missing something obvious?

I looked up the Thetford Aria, by the way, and as far as I can tell it is not distributed in the UK. I did eventually find some 'nice' RV toilets available here, but they were around FIFTEEN TIMES the price of a regular house toilet - not really an expense I can justify given that I don't expect it will ever get much use.

What I am guessing is that RV toilets have basically been designed to work (or at least not leak water everywhere) in some fairly extreme applications (such in a yacht going through waves while heeling at 45' for example). A coach conversion is probably the least extreme application of all, which is why I wonder whether you really need to pay all that extra money. Putting aside the potential vibration-related issues, the biggest 'force' you could apply to the toilet in a bus would be violent braking, say combined with a steep downhill grade. My instinct tells me that it wouldn't be difficult to prevent a regular domestic toilet sloshing water everywhere in this situation. I may be wrong, though.

Please be assured that I am not trying to be argumentative. As I heard on Star Trek once:- "I do not question, Master - I merely seek enlightenment"

Jeremy