Painting question

[bryanhes]

True about enamels. You can buff them back to life. If it is really oxidized you can wet sand with 12-1500 grit then buff. This can also be done with a clear coat. You just do not have as much material that can be sanded away with the clear.

For example my 1970 4905 has the original paint which is an enamel. I wet sanded and buffed the rear blue stripe and it looks nice.

First pic is when I bought it and second is after removing decals, wet sand and buffing.




So will a single stage paint take more abuse and be able to be brought back to life without as much work as a base-clear? You bet! Will it typically have the depth as a normal base-clear? Nope! You have to work much harder with a single stage to get the depth and shine as a base-clear. But it can be done to look as good. I can usually shoot a single stage and not have to wet sand to have a nice shine. Its all about laying it on almost to the point of running the paint but not to get a nice shine without the extra steps. But to get the depth it is allot of wet sanding and buffing. And don't think about sanding a single stage paint with metallic in it because it will distort the metallic effect and look horrible.

Everyone has had different success and results with what they have used. There are many variables. Including but not limited to the age and type/brand of paint, hardeners, reducers and clears to the experience of the guy's doing the prep and paint, type of booth they are shooting in to humidity. I think everyone gets my point.

Ruthi, you and Ken should use what you feel is right for your use. If you trust the guy doing the work and he is going to warranty it go with his recommendation.

Hope it turns out great for you two 

Bryan

[luvrbus]

I think clear is all in timing, prep and the painter I have seen Prevost's and Newell's Mike painted 25 years while working for Marathon and Newell and never saw one lifting.
Clear coat is good stuff when I get a nick or scratch Mike buffs it out , on my graphics you cannot feel one line where it starts and stops and I have a bunch.
All the top end conversions use base coat clear coat for you guys going to Bus'n USA set down and talk to Mike he will give you the facts on both systems this guy paints helicopters and private jets with base and clear

good luck

[bryanhes]

I am with you on the base-clear Clifford. I prefer it but also have allot of experience using it. The only downside to scratches are if they are deep into the paint. If you are good you can touch up the clear with a syringe or air brush and it will not be very noticeable. Also depends on the size of scratch  .

I however do not know if I will take on my paint job for the simple fact that it is a large area and I am guessing that Mike has more than one guy shooting the paint when doing a bus.

Bryan

[luvrbus]

Brian, when he starts with the clear he has plenty of help he checks his dryer and the air temp on the air for what I don't know but I have watched him re clear coat complete buses where the owner wanted to keep the same paint and I was told you could not do that by others in the paint world.
Our newest moderator (Paul) is going to attend Mike's seminar at Busn Usa bet you we will have the low down then on the 2 systems LOL because Paul is going to ask some questions
fwiw I have been trying to get Mike to do a article for BCM on painting maybe Paul ,Dale and I together can get it done this year


good luck

[bryanhes]

You definately can re clear over old paint. I have done it many times. Even small areas with a spray can. Bobofthenorth just did some on his with a spray can that I told him about and said it turned out looking pretty good. I have re cleared old heavy metallic painted boats that turn out nicely. There again it is proper prep.

I would say he is making sure there is no moisture in the lines (dryer) before he starts spraying as a little moisture can screw things up in a hurry ie. fish eye etc..

Bryan

[Chopper Scott]

It's pretty hard to beat the durability of Imron. Valspar also makes a similar product that is a tad cheaper. You can also get Imron as a clear. I've had cycle parts painted with Dupont paint and cleared with Imron. If your concerned about durability then the Imron is the only way to go.

[JohnEd]

FINALLY!  I heard the word IMRON from a expert on this post.  I have always thought that the real beauty of two stage paints was that they were more fail safe.  You need a clear coat specific gun but you never get a run and if you do you "air it down" to a spot that doesn't matter.  The manufactures went to two stage because it was easier and cost less than Imron or single stage and was thinner.

The original "wet look" paint was Imron....I think.  It is a "wet look" paint, however, at least in its appearance.  It DOES come in a crystal clear variety and that is the one that they dump the metalic flake into.  Prep and product compatibility are paramount with Imron and it is most certainly not the paint to "try out".  The "shooter" that did my Z with "tripple" silver Imron was a Mexican that traveled all over San Diego to shops shooting.  He was expensive but if you were shooting silver anything he was the only way to go.  My car was a show stopper and even cops stopped me to find out what that paint was and where to get it done.  The shops, at that time, didn't shoot the Imron themselves but contracted or that service.  Black art!

Imron was developed "for" the airline industry.  Seems there is so much UV at 40K feet that most paints have a very short lifespan.  They oxidize, and pit and get rough with age.  They can be buffed but the expense of dong a 747 is probably more than a repaint.  Imron is impervious to UV, doesn't seem to oxidize any worse than ceramics and stays "snot on a pealed onion" slippery.  It buffs just fine and I did mine 6 weeks after it was finished and it added noticeble clarity and brightness to what I thought was a perfect finish.  I have applied Acrylic Enamels that I thought came close to Imron in finish 20 years ago.  Imron can't be touched up as it won't even stick to itself.  Full panels ust be shot but it doesn't fade so a match is easier.  That is a really good thing a you can't "blend in" a repair.  It is severely expensive as a product and out of my reach today.

It is a really back breaking lot of work to mask and paint a bus.  I know cause I did it and I ain't no pro.  I bought the DA sanders and paint guns and materials and hired help for the body work and general assist/labor.  It looks really god till this day and it was painted in 93 with Nason, a bottom tier pant at the time.  I painted it at 6am on a dirt road out in front of a barn on a friends farm.  Read a lot of books aqnd asked a lot of stupid questions of generous people/professionals.  I have never waxed it and it has sat outside since then in the Or. rain and mildewed to severely "black".  Cheap junk paint holds up really well on vertical surfaces cause it is intended to hold upon horizontal surfaces like a hood or viseble car roof top.  It will be at Bus-in for your entertainment.

Today, on my budget, she would get a coat of premium porch floor gloss LATEX paint.

I would not use two stage.  Every failed paint job I have seen in the past ten years has been two stage and , yes, you could notice that "from the hi-way over there on the other side of the field".  Repair, fade, buffing and failure issues overcome the "thin" advantages.

I have told this story many times before but I never tire of reporting a 10G savings and how I did that.  There are others, on this forum, that have echoed my process and success so I ain't all that unique.  Hope it helps somebody.

John

[Chopper Scott]

JohnEd... I had a boat painted with Imron as well as the interior  part of the floor that wasn't carpeted. It still looked awesome when we hauled the hull to the dump 15 years later!! Even the abuse of walking on it didn't scratch it. Needless to say you don't want to wait long to sand any sags or runs out!!!!

[JohnEd]

Chopper,

I don't recall the dilution ratio of Imron.  Do you?  I spent a lot of money on the additives to that stuff and th paint and reducer were bad enuf.  What would you think it would cost, in product alone, to paint a 40 foot bus?  I have the guts to ask you that cause you said you were in the business.

Thanks,

John

[DaveG]

Ruthi, my vote is for a single stage urethane like Imron. And FWIW, there is more than one type/series of Imron by Dupont, ie 5000, 6000 etc.
Other manufacturers may have comparable products. Again, talk to your shop

[belfert]

My bus is a 1995.  I assume the paint is original.  The clear coat is peeling in a number of areas and has been since I bought the bus in 2006 and probably before that.  There are some large areas with the clear peeled off in large sheets.

[JohnEd]

Brian,

I am sorry to hear that your paint job has failed.  No joke.  I have heard it before and seen it many times and all were two stage process.  In Pennsylvania there is a trait common to that local.  That trait is that "if it has happened before then it is God's will, inevitable, or whatever, but there is nothing you can do to resolve it or prevent it."  It goes something like this, "oh, sure, it always does that", spoken about a dam failure and catastrophic flood.  Everyone within hearing distance then mutters and shakes their head in agreement....no action or resolve.  Always has mystified me no end.

There are good well intentioned and intelligent people on this board that will dive as deep into denial as any Pa. resident.  It goes like this "oh, that was due to bad prep or improper procedure".  Well folks, that should kill any job.  Problem is that bad jobs like that only happen to two stage.  Use the system that doesn't fail that way.  Understanding it and using it again is not a good move unless redoing the job is of no appreciable consequence to your wallet.  Imagine this:  I am going t have Dr. Rajah do my open heart surgery, even though he has the worst survival rate by oodles, because every death was easily explained in therms of cause and blame.  In Pa that would pass for good sense.  Someone in the crowd would undoubtedly add that "all his patients that make do pretty good."  I couldn't stand it....you know I couldn't stand it...don't you?

To paint or not to paint...that is the problem,

John

[ruthi]

Thanks to all of you, your input was great. We are going to go with the painters advice I cant wait to see it start happening.

[Chopper Scott]

John Ed,  Actually I'm not in the painting business but I have had a lot of stuff done over the years and one of my best friends owns a body shop. The Imron is higher but not as bad as one would think. Like I posted earlier, Valspar makes a similar product and it is cheaper. My friend paints a lot of trucks and always goes the Imron route. Nasty stuff for the health and requires more than a dust mask to paint!

[rv_safetyman]

IMRON has always seemed to be the standard against which other paints are judged.  PPG has/had a very similar product in years past, but it has become compromised by EPA regulations from what I hear.  I know that my catalyst for some paint (uregthane) I need to finish a car I have been working on has been replaced at least twice since I started the job several years ago.  I have not checked, but I would bet the catalyst I have (the product has a relatively short shelf life) and been changed once again. 

So, that begs the question about IMRON:  has it also  been compromised over the past several years (have to believe that it has)?

Ruthi, this thread is so long that I forgot what your painter is planning on using. 

Jim