Alternative fuels

[JohnEd]

In other words, it would be so wonderful if in a post like this, where Wayne is sharing with us his lovely contraption, the posts that follow would keep to the topic of asking questions about how he built it, or why he chose a certain type of tubing over another, etc. and not placing judgment. Other threads can discuss lubricity of fuel, viscosity of fuel, proper terminology, whether DDs can even handle alt fuels, etc, and go back and forth on a whole variety of things. (For example, I will keep my comments about peanut oil to another time and place Wink !!)

Hmmmmm!  Yeah, I hate it when people cross  those lines of blurring the original subject.

placing judgment 

I see this type of discourse as sharing info and debating relative merit.  Sticking to the topic is another matter and the latitude afforded is a matter of opinion in itself.  I have been here for many years and I don't feel I have accrued enough "credits" to dictate a whole lot to this crew about almost anything.  Besides there are a lot of them that I am certain are smarter than I and I keep learning that there are a lot of sleepers, unassuming and inordinately qualified  types without pretension, and the guys that get themselves squired by them look silly for awhile.  And my 4 degrees, 140 IQ and 68 years, if anything, makes me more humble and appreciative of others.  It is the quality of humility within me of which I am most proud.  Is this called subject drift?

DRT,

I would like to see you start a thread about peanut oil.  I don't think I know much about subject that but the history is interesting.

Thanks and really glad you are with us,

John

[wal1809]

I wish I could write that well John.  I did not do well in High School and I was in the police academy at 20.  I took a few courses in college but not enough to write like you.  When I see a well written piece I admire it.

  I think what DRT was trying to do was being respectful and avoiding direct contradiction about the peanut oil subject.  Peanut oil is not a great low temp oil.  Rather than throw the thread of course she chose to be delicate with the matter because her true passion is not in arguing but in the promotion of an alternative fuel.  A promotion that could lead this country out of the doomsday and into a bright future.  None of us believe it is vegtable oil alone that will do it.  We alternative fuelers do believe we have to start somewhere.  It will and has led us to other options.  I appreciate her for Being here and I appreciate her input.

I am one of those who worry about the future.  It warms my heart to see a 23 year old on this board who accepts, embraces the energy problem and does something to fix it.  It starts with us. 

[cody]

John, I agree that achedemic achievement is not the area that is going to dictate progress or failure, I have 3 degree's myself but mine were achieved out of boredom while working for the state, supervisors were given the option of advancing thu the educational system on the state ticket if it could be determined that the idea would benefit the job, many of the credits overlaped and made it easy for me, but back to the idea of the alternate fuel, my concern and I feel it's been address as fully as possible right now is fairly simple.  We have many that show interest in the idea and a few that are actually doing it.  For the few that are well versed in the process, it's incumbant upon them to not only address the physical properties of the process if they are willing but if they do so then the safety and legal steps should be also be addressed. That doesn't constitute drift but more like further explaination of the details, I would hate to see a person run afoul of the law in a zealous attempt to produce fuel utilizing components that are legal in one state but banned in another, or find that their particular area requires a permit or license of some sort, my area of finese as a supervisor in law enforcement was the legal end of the program so I've always looked at that as well as the other properties.  In many states legal items that are common in many ways become illegal when found in close proximity to each other or one state may limit the quantity of an item while another may not care, for example it not only takes an act of God to buy methanol in michigan, you can't get it in usable quantites since the word meth became assosiated with crystal 'meth' labs, 'knee jerk' reactions of legislators don't require logic, only votes.

[wal1809]

Cody that is a good contribution to the thread.  I for one can't speak for other states.  Texas is a little different than others apparently.  Here you pretty much can go with a wide open throttle.  I know some fellas are buying 10,000 at a time and having It delivered.  From there they divide the cost and go there separate ways with there 300 gallons each.  When you buy methanol in small quantities you pay out the nose.  I was able to knock off $1.75 a gallon by buying 300 at a time.  The only rules in place here are you have to plackard your load if over 400 gallons.

The other good thing about Texas, other than 4 major metroplexes it is mostly rural.  I know where I live you won't see your neighbor unles you need him.  I talked to the lady on the next property south of here.  The last time I spoke with her was at the closing on my house, 7years ago.  So having a fire will destroy everything in the barn but I don't have to worry about burning a whole neighborhood down.  Oh and BTW I do have extinuishers and water hoses near the processor and far away from the processor.  If I were to have a fire and it was near the methanol storage I would jut have to get away and let it go.  The methanol is in a stainless 300 gallon cubie, grounded and outside away from any ignition source.

[luvrbus]

Ok guys back to program for the life of me I cannot find anywhere that says wvo falls under the 2 types fuel for Cat,Cummins or Detroit the 2 types of fuel being preferred (distillate) and permissible (soy or rapseed).
Cat and Cummins say no more than 5% bio fuel and Detroit is 20% and 0% for Detroit 2 strokes with emission control can you guys help me out here 




good luck

[JohnEd]

Cody,

Thanks.  I expected that you had advanced degrees as I knew of your career in law enforcement and a Master's is needed to progress.  At least in Ca.it is.  I went to University till I was 43 and I was paying a princely sum for those last many years out of pocket.  I loved school and I did it as much as possible both with work associated education and the personal stuff.  We share a lot.

We have many that show interest in the idea and a few that are actually doing it.

Mine is the counterpoint to your opinion, Cody.  I find people involved in alt fuels are numerous and well dispursed. They are knowledgeable in their respective processes to the point of expertise and while most are not academically qualified there exists in their environment superbly qualified persons that focus and guide them.  Like almost all trail blazers they are "rule averse" and "risk prone/tolerant".  That would be your antithesis unless i miss my guess.  Yet, you are the guy that they will go to when the enforcers bunched their skives and you charted the course to compliance with the min pain or the path to circumvent the rough spots.  God knows your skills are needed and not everyone has you interest and talent.  I am not making fuel but I am trying to and all I kneed is a new house with property in a town that has escaped the real estate down turn.

I bought 55 gallons of methanol at my local race track.  The racers use it as "high octane" for their cars.  To get a price they purchase in thousand gallon lots.  Unlike Exxon, they pass the savings along to friends.  It isn't rare or difficult to procure.  As usual, only the honest folk are being inconvenienced by the regs.  Drugs are common around here despite all that bearing down on "cringimals".  The only thing holding me back is space and being able to keep the processor and stock far away from anything else I value.

That doesn't constitute drift but more like further explanation of the details,

No argument from me.   Obviously!

the word meth became associated with crystal 'meth' labs,

Alt fuel types warn everybody that will listen that you MUST avoid that word and only use the word "methanol" or "methyl alcohol".  Data mining on the internet by the NSA is done on behalf of the DEA  and the DEA often gets bored and we cannot count on them to collectively take a class.

'knee jerk' reactions of legislators

You get what you pay for.  The same guys that sold us on the extravagant pay and bonuses for corp execs are selling us on the validity of "improving the system" by cutting the pay of pols.  Dr.s , insurance co.s and oil outfits do not subscribe to the "tighten your belt" theory either.  y theory is that we need to pay Senators a couple million a year with added perks and Congressmen a million and cops a coupe hundred thousand (or more) and demand that much value from each.  I'll bet my MBA that would work.  Imagine the applicants you would have to screen.  I think alt fuel problems would be resolved in a New York Minute if their Jobs depended on it and they couldn't rely on Exxon to fund their campaigns.  Fuel and bus related.

WAL,

If you think I have any mastery of out native tongue then, you Sir, are easily impressed.  I missed the boat on spelling as well.  You learn to spell around the 4Th grade and grammar happens a little later.  I was a D to F student till the 9Th grade when I became a A- kinda guy thru 11Th and then back to D- and drop for the last year.  Severe child abuse/neglect are the experts explanation.  They fired a teacher and the principal in one case and forceably retired another and those were only the ones that got a richly deserved dose.  We gotta cut the fat out of that education system, right?  Wrong! We gotta double the budgets almost everywhere in our own interest for survival.  " you think education is expensive...try STUPID for awhile".

 I think what DRT was trying to do was being respectful and avoiding direct contradiction about the peanut oil subject.  Peanut oil is not a great low temp oil.  Rather than throw the thread of course she chose to be delicate with the matter because her true passion is not in arguing but in the promotion of an alternative fuel.

I guess I missed most of that.  What confuses me is why she wouldn't offer these clarifications on her own behalf.  She is anything BUT lacking in com skills. She seems to have  a pretty good grip on a whole host of other subjects as well and given her age that is even more impressive. Maybe she likes it but I am not fond of people explaining what I really meant.  Sure do value the spirit of support though.

that could lead this country out of the doomsday

I think I read where the total production of VO, were it applied to the Dino appetite of our nation, would only satisfy 11  or 13% of the requirements and that only if we gave up baking and other frivolous applications..  I think the principle of every little bit helps is more appropriate.  That and the activity should be encouraged and rewarded.  I have read that we could only realistically apply 5 or 6% but even that would amt to billions.  Europe, with it's 3% requirement does  well with their balance of payments to the Sheiks and other despots.  Surely your enthusiasm is well directed, though.

I am one of those who worry about the future.  It warms my heart to see a 23 year old on this board who accepts, embraces the energy problem and does something to fix it.

This will send you to nirvana and really get your pumper toasty.  Go to YAHOO GROUPS and search for "BioD" and WVO and WMO and Alt Fuels and Diesel and Energy, just for a start.  You will find a lot of DRT types in that mix that are teenagers and worthy of respect let alone adults...at least by the likes of me.  After investigating them try the same thing on Google.


I am one of those who worry about the future

For most people the act of worrying imparts an unpleasant feeling.  Again, most, find this feeling localize to the abdomen.  So, in effect, when you tell someone that you worry about them your communication is that their actions or simply being is making you sick to your stomach.  I come from a long line of worriers and I hope that you restrict that action to only the "future".

Gee! This developed a life of its own for me.  Terrible to have all those buttons.

Me

[wal1809]

Hello Johned.  Because I don't write as well as some of you who hold several degrees I find myself having explain my previous posts.  When speaking of alternate fuels leading us out of doomsday nightmares I didn't mean it would be wvo that would do it all.  More in a sense it will come from the people.  Who knows what could happen or who knows what scientic breakthrough is just around the corner.

I commend DRT because she is of the generation behind mine.  The next to take the gauntlet and run with it excitedly.  I know of only a very small percentage in that he group that has taken on the challenge.  Sure we can find it out there on google.  I am sure if I googles long enough o could find a bilingual elephant that retrieves ducks.  So to me DRT is kewl.

Now back to biod.  John you can make bio d in a 5 gallon bucket.  What you waiting on.  Oh and if your buying methanol from the track you might be taking a hit.  If I buy at the track it is $5.00 a gallon.  In bulk I get it for less than $2.00 per gallon.

I want to also recap what I mentioned earlier.  Keep your glycerin for a rainy day.  When you hey oil that titrates really high just pour in 8 gallons of the glycrin into 40 gallons of high titrate oil.  Turn on your processor at temp leave it circulate for an hour.  Let it sit for about 8 hours and drain the glycerin off.  Re-titrate the oil and see what it is then.  You will get a nice surprise.  It will also take any hidden water out as well.  This way you use cruddy oil and reclaim your methanol.  No need to build a separate still to reclaim the methanol.

[wal1809]

Ok guys back to program for the life of me I cannot find anywhere that says wvo falls under the 2 types fuel for Cat,Cummins or Detroit the 2 types of fuel being preferred (distillate) and permissible (soy or rapseed).
Cat and Cummins say no more than 5% bio fuel and Detroit is 20% and 0% for Detroit 2 strokes with emission control can you guys help me out here 




good luck

Hello Luvrbus.  I think it would be easier to find a chicken's tooth than it woul be to find where a manufacturer recommended any higher blends than what you have found.  Mainly because there are a lot o people out there making fuel that is sub standard. 

The real truth is we all run a risk with running bio d or wvo.  To me it is worth it.  The risks are biod ways rubber.  I have been working on my tractor today (I will leave the adjectives to your imagination).  I found the return fuel line is no longer ther.  It was made of rubber and is gone.  It is an easy fix so I will keep rockin on with it.

The other problem is diluted motor oil.  I choose to change my own at home and I change it more frequently than the manufacturer recommends.  If you don't change the oil then you could be in for a real beating in the long run.  For my VW Jettas the oil change is 10000.  I do a filter change every 10000 buy an oil change at 5000.  In my Excursion I change every3000 instead of the 5000.

So farad where to find the type 2 fuel rating I will have to help you find it Monday.  I am not sure where to look and need a bigger keyboard than a iPhone has to offer.

[kyle4501]

This has been one of the most usefull discussions I have read on this subject. Usually, there are lots of the 'dirty little details' left out or glossed over. But, in this discussion, they are being addressed in a mature & practical 'matter of fact' manner.

Nice to see the details being discussed instead of being trampled on, especially the base stock collection procedures.

I wish you continued success with your endeavor.

[philiptompkjns]

I wish I could write that well John.  I did not do well in High School and I was in the police academy at 20.  I took a few courses in college but not enough to write like you.  When I see a well written piece I admire it.

  I think what DRT was trying to do was being respectful and avoiding direct contradiction about the peanut oil subject.  Peanut oil is not a great low temp oil.  Rather than throw the thread of course she chose to be delicate with the matter because her true passion is not in arguing but in the promotion of an alternative fuel.  A promotion that could lead this country out of the doomsday and into a bright future.  None of us believe it is vegtable oil alone that will do it.  We alternative fuelers do believe we have to start somewhere.  It will and has led us to other options.  I appreciate her for Being here and I appreciate her input.

I am one of those who worry about the future.  It warms my heart to see a 23 year old on this board who accepts, embraces the energy problem and does something to fix it.  It starts with us. 

Haha, it kind of warmed my heart to see another 23 year old on this board period.  I don't have anything against wiser people, I just thought thought I was the youngest here.

[JohnEd]

WAL,

I want to also recap what I mentioned earlier.  Keep your glycerin for a rainy day.  When you hey oil that titrates really high just pour in 8 gallons of the glycerin into 40 gallons of high titrate oil.  Turn on your processor at temp leave it circulate for an hour.  Let it sit for about 8 hours and drain the glycerin off.  Re-titrate the oil and see what it is then.  You will get a nice surprise.  It will also take any hidden water out as well.  This way you use cruddy oil and reclaim your methanol.  No need to build a separate still to reclaim the methanol.


That is a recent development/process in BioD making.  A year ago I built a "plumber's delight" still to recover the methanol.  The copper was not all that cheap and there was some labor involved.  Using the Gly to dry the stock and lower its acidity is just plain nifty.  No matter what it titrates at, use that methanol laden glys to your good advantage. I can't imagine doing it any other way.  Ans after you use the gly to treat your WVO stock keep the gly around for a while. b BioD in small quantities floats to the top for skimming.

I commend DRT because she is of the generation behind mine.

Lots of people are confused about the span of years in a generation.  It varies a little but it is commonly identified   as 14 years.  I doubt you are 37-38.  Are you?  I suspect there are more than a few generations between you.  That would further make your case, I'm sure.

some of you who hold several degrees

You can search till your hearts content but you won't find a university teaching basic writing skills, grammar or spelling.  All that is supposed to have happened prior to HS.  With precious few exceptions all of my professors had education at the college level as the objective.  Few held out any hope for those many of us that hadn't managed to claim those skills for our own EVER developing them.  If you could pull an A in your engineering courses they didn't care if you could spell it.  Mine didn't, anyway, thank God.  Old saying that adds perspective: Quote :4 years ago I couldn't even spell engineer and now I are one".  Sadly close to reality.

I have no D vehicle.  I have friends with them and I will have one.  While I want to process this oil to salvage it I want to do it in a processor.  I would be doing 5 gallon batches if I could use it.  The friend that was in this with me has flaked.

I paid $2.15/gallon for my methanol a couple years ago.  The boys at the track do me right and they really like the idea that i am doing something for the environment.  Curious posture for that group, eh wha?

Other than real bus stuff I would prefer to do on PM or email or phone.  All are listed.  You could get all the heat you need out of a oil fired boiler.  House and shop and processor.  What are you paying for electricity out there.

[wal1809]

Well Sir I am 42.  So not too far off.  I thought about the vacuum venturi and even started the project about 2 years ago.  Then I got turned onto using the old glycerin as a prep.  You can actually take really bad oil down to such a low titrate number, you can hit it with a base and your done.

My wife and I also made a batch of soap with the glycerin.  The bar soap is amazing.  It will get you sqeaky clean.  When my clothes get stains, even ink stained I cut up a piece of he bar soap and soak it into the stain.  Works wonders.

Johned I thought this whole time you had a bus.  You Will be a long time between rides
making 5 gallons of bio d at a time.  That is a good price for methanol.  I have seen some if these at the track for $7.00

I use electricity in the process for heat. I heat to 110 circulate and spray to dry the oil. From the it goes into the mixing chamber.  If you will notice the temp critical barrels in the pic of my processor, they are shot with foam insulation and paint over that.

Once it gts bit I use very little electricity after that.  Theixer was insulated too good at first.  I had to remove the insulation from the pipes and the top.  The chemical reaction from the methanol would raise the temp from 110 f  to 150 f .  I had to remove some insulation.
We had a front come in yesterday.  Pretty cold for this time of year here.  I hated some oil up in the mixer yesterday afternoon and this morning I noticed it has only lost 20 degrees over night.  I think our electricity bill never went over $200 in the summer last year.

[cody]

i speel gud.

[wal1809]

i speel gud.

I have to say your right.  I could not sleep last night so I went out to the barn for a while.  I wrote that around 4:30am or so.  I read it again just a minute ago.  I have got to get my PC hooked up and running again.  

I worked on my (insert as many dirty adjectives as you think I might have blurted out here) tractor until 10:30 pm last night.  I found the return fuel lines were melted.  They looked like the plastic worms you fish with.  Bio d destroyed them.  That was an easy fix.  It makes me wonder though when I will have to take the injector pump to be rebuilt with Viton rubber seals.

What I went to fix was originally the ingnition switch.  It had been in yard near the barn.  The ignition switch just fell apart.  $130.00 for a new one shipped here.  It is of course diesel so finding a generic brand was impossible.  You turn the key backwards for the glow plugs then in the opposite direction for start.

For $15.00 total I bought a generic switch,a big washer and a 30 amp starter button.  I wired the glow plugs through the starter button and then had to figure out what wire went where.  Well in figuring what wire went where is when th adjectives started rolling.  Somewhere out there is a Phillips head screwdriver that reached the speed of light going across the yard.

Come to find out the (adjectives) battery was dead as a nail.  It gave a 12 volt reading but could handle no load, not even click the starter.  Another trip to town,pad all the dogs and here we go.  3 trips to town, a few of these &$@"/ and $15.00 plus a new battery we are off to the races.

[wal1809]

Oh I forgot to tell y'all why it was that difficult.  All the wiring was done with just enough wire to get from one component to the next.  I had a choice od pulling the steering wheel and the fuel tank to gain access.  My other choice was to loosen the dash and have enough room to get my fingers behind and undo all the electric components and drop them now the dash. 

Other than whining I really had a point to all this.  The point is to check your fuel lines if using older vehicles.  The bio d destroyed mine and allowed the return ports to spit bio d all over the motor.  It ate the paint off the motor as well.  Bio d is some bad juju for some items.  This is why filters get clogged when people first start using bio d.  It will take everything out of the tank and lines and send it to the filter.