Flooring & Flooring Insulation

[Doug1968]

Fellows,

I now have the interior of my bus (102A3) completely stripped except for the ceiling and wall insulation. It was a job removing the plywood from the floor and I still have the two seat rails to grind loose.

I am really surprised at how good of shape the structure is in. Except for the sidewall tubing that was next to the restroom there is no rust on the framing. I thought for sure I would find areas where water had made its way in to the bus framework.

Over the rear tires there is a thin gauge sheet metal component that sits on top of the fiberglass wheel wells. All of these have rusted on the ends where they bolt to the wheel well. I'm not real sure what these sheet metal pieces do as they are thin, probably 20/22 gauge? They are approximately 24" wide and are formed to match the radius of the fiberglass wheel wells. Seems odd having these pieces so thin?

The plywood, 1/2" - 5 ply was in good shape and did not have any areas that were rotten.

I am wondering about what I should do to insulate the floor area? All cavities were well stuffed with the pink factory insulation and I am wondering if this is adequate? I am not raising the roof on the bus so I am concerned about eating up head room by adding height to the floor.

Today I visited the local lumber yard to look at plywood. They have tongue and groove in both 3/4" and 1-1/8" thickness. I can get the 1-1/8" with an A side that would be sanded. My thought is to lay the plywood across the bus, 96", and this would leave approximately 1/4"-3/8" clearance from each sidewall. Should be very strong as the bus has many supports in the floor.

The heat/AC duct-work in this bus were incredibly filthy. Both the pressure and return were just terrible.

I plan to keep the OTR heat and air. I have read several posts where there was discussions regarding the upkeep cost to these systems but I feel that keeping this system is the best way to cool the bus going down the road.

I am thinking about running conduit inside the return duct down the center of the bus so that I can run wires to/from any of the bays. I would run a common line with drops at each bay and in the heat/AC bay and the spare tire area.

I am also thinking that this would be a good spot to run hot water lines to floor outlets for the hydronic heat?

I am traveling to California after Christmas and plan to stop by Ardemco to look at holding tanks. I still have not decided how I am doing the waste tanks and I hope to get some better ideas when I see the tanks.

I would like thoughts on my noted ideas as many of you have already jumped these hurdles. I have paid close attention of the recent posts regarding all electric vs using propane. The inexpensive cost of the propane components make using it attractive. Then you read about the cost to operate?

I see Wabasto hydronic systems (rebuilt) on E-Bay and they seem pretty inexpensive. Does anyone have experience with these rebuilt units? I would like hearing about your success.

I have many wires from the overhead racks/lighting to trace back and strip out of the electrical panel. I hope that this goes smoothly and I don't end up having to rewire the bus? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

My bus has a 5 speed transmission and the parking brake valve is located on the right side of the driver. I would like to relocate this valve and would like to hear from you guys as to how you handled this relocation?

I can already see that it is very important to think and plan for completing these conversions. It would be really easy to spend more than you would spend to buy a converted bus. I will be doing everything myself and constantly thinking about most effective design as I move forward.

I appreciate you guys and look forward to getting home at night to see what is going on in the bus arena across the country.

Doug

[Tom Y]

Are you removing the floor? If going over the 1/2 plywood why add 3/4 or1 1/8? Tom Y

[robertglines1]

You have covered a lot of Questions..Sheet metal over fiberglass possibly to add safety factor for strength and fire protection..Tires catchin on fire are a major concern....to address floor...I insulate everywhere with spray foam I can any voids are places you can't attach board insulation..In the bay area I insulated doors and floors (bay) and walls that would be exposed to outside temps. Flooring on my coach is two layers separated by a noise suppressing product (similar to a heavy tar paper)to help reduce road and drivetrain noise..some coaches use lead sheet...others will chime in with products...one  question per post will lead you to more complete in put..good luck and keep posting;welcome to the madness..

[NewbeeMC9]

If you search the archives, there was a thread about sealing the top of the wheel wells and then foaming over them,  There is a tendency for the wheel wells to leak when driving in rain at least on the MC9 anyway.  Also make sure all your clearance lights work before you cover them up from the inside.

Just from my experience

[Doug1968]

Tom,

Yes, I have removed all of the 1/2" plywood. I debated about leaving it in place but then decided to remove all of the flooring so that I could inspect the structure for rust or water damage.

Now I need to decide what to use for flooring?

Doug

[Ednj]

Doug,

I don't think you need to go with 1-1/8 ply for the floor. It would be solid though wouldn't it. I kept the original and added ½" on top.
Those little metal covers over the fiberglass wheel wells are there to keep the shredded tires from coming through the floor.
The areas over the wheels front and back spray foam full right to the floor height.
I used these kits from McMaster-Carr http://www.mcmaster.com/#9325k73/=51i1lw  . Be sure to reinstall the heat shield in the rear under the floor.
The floor in the rear gets really hot after a long drive and is really cold winter camping.

I all so kept the otr hvac its the only way to go when doing a lot of driving the roof air is just not enough.
I used ½" foil faced foam board to insulate the tunnel or return duct.

"All electric vs using propane. The inexpensive cost of the propane components make using it attractive."
The inexpensive components make it very attractive but I wanted much more than a driveable travel trailer and I all so did not want to deal with the bridge and tunnel restrictions imposed sense 911 so mine is Electric and Diesel only.

"I see Wabasto hydronic systems (rebuilt) on E-Bay and they seem pretty inexpensive. Does anyone have experience with these rebuilt units? I would like hearing about your success." I got a used take out Proheat from Bruce http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=13536.0 , with baseboard in the front and bedrooms and a cabin heat exchanger in the bath http://great-water.com/zcart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=133&products_id=3743&zenid=c596caf7f99867cea4692426b62e4952  nothing else is needed.

Insulate the tops of the bays (under the floors) I think Gumpy had the right idea with his under the floor heat
http://www.gumpydog.com/bus/MC9_WIP/HVAC/House_HVAC/House_Heating/Hydronic_Heating_System/hydronic_heating_system.htm .

[bevans6]

I would go with a layered floor with a thermal break, that would give you the best of all worlds.  If it was bonded together it would be as stiff as solid plywood, but not transfer heat.  It could be as simple as 1/2" ply on the top and bottom, and 3/8" foam tied together with copious adhesives.

Adding a conduit all the way fore and aft is a super idea, with breakouts and pull strings in each bay.  Great way to pre-plan for future additions to the unit.

electric vs propane.  I think the decision factor is down to upfront cost vs running cost vs system cost vs planned usage.  If you are like me, have reasonable expectation of cash flow vs high investment, you do what you can afford now and expect to pay a bit more down the  road.  Propane appliances can be had quite reasonably if you try, and things like the fridge and stove are well suited to them.   Electric only can be attractive for a fridge, for example, but electric heat is a tough one to crack.  Diesel appliances can be had, and you already have diesel storage on board, but the upfront cost is pretty high.  Self-supporting electric can start to add up real fast when you start to add in generator capacity, battery capacity, possible solar, sine-wave inverters.  Yet this can be the best way to go for constant use - big investment up front, but running costs are low.  If you're like me, and might spend 20 - 30 nights a year in the bus, propane is the way to go.

[cody]

The idea of the layered floor is a good one, we used to call them an "alabama floor" lol, the key there is to support the foam with wood strips set at intervals with the foam between them, the reason being is the foam will break down over time and create a problem, I've worked on several buses where that has happened and each time the foam was unsupported.  The floors that I've used and put into buses are simple layered floors, but with a few small alterations, I used felt weatherstripping on top of the metal supports before screwing the subfloor to them, the purpose is to isolate the plywood from the metal supports to eliminate the wood to metal squeaks that can appear over time and to provide a thermal break between the metal and wood, then cut and placed wood furring strips the thinkness of the foamboard at 24 inch intervals, cut and layed the foam board in between them, rolled out an 1/8th inch layer of MLV for a sound stop and then put the underlayment over that, it made for a warm quiet floor that has held up in most climates, pay particular attention to the fender wells, any soundproofing that can be done there pays off in the long run to cut down on road noise, the bedroom floor is another area of concern with potential problems involving heat from the engine and engine noise.  For the bedroom I prefer to go from 2 pound MLV to 4 pound MLV, it only adds an 1/8 of an inch and doubles the sound proofing capability.  MLV is Mass Loaded Vinyl, it's available in a roll and is available in various densities, 2 pound, is rated at 2 pounds per square ft and is generally about an 1/8th inch thick, 4 pound mlv is rated at 4 pounds per square foot and is generally about 1/4 inch thick.

[luvrbus]

Doug, be careful with using MLV it is made for sound proofing but in a controlled environment.
Marathon and Prevost got in trouble using it 3 years ago it doesn't hold up with temperature changes and vibration I saw some buses at Marathon they were ripping the floors out of converted coaches to replace with lead what a mess that was FWIW.



good luck

[cody]

Clifford is absolutely right, I should have mentioned that if you try to save some money and use a low grade MLV it may decompose on you, you'll find several grades and varieties, some are for applications like walls for a recording studio others are for mobile applications, they didn't always have the application designated until complaints started coming in, the higher grades are generally acceptable for mobile applications but make sure thats what your getting. The older style lead based variety is still concidered the best but is getting harder to find with the government regulations and hoops the industry has to jump thru now.

[JohnEd]

I think Prevost still uses the sheet lead between floor layers.  At any rate, they used that method for many years and theirs was the quietest.

The D fired boilers for the heating system are great, expensive to maintain and need periodic maint.  Many have experienced fault free operation for many years....many others, not so much.  The sweetest hydronic system I have seen used a propane boiler made by I think Sperry.  It was "tiny" at about 18" X 24" X 24" and had a huge BTU rating.  That guy had it integrated into the engine/genny cooling system and used it to heat the bus, heat his water and preheat the gen and engine.  Pretty simple actually and he had run it for 4 or 5 years or so without taking so much as a screw driver to it.  Gas pipe, water pipe,thermostat and 12 V DC were the extent of interface.  $100 for the boiler used.

I might be able to come up with more make and model info if you need it.

John

And his system was integrated into the engine coolant system....the way to go for my money and I haven't a dime invested, understand.

[robertglines1]

What others have said your decisions depend on how you use your coach..We spend most nights in camp grounds so we did total electric...when we dry camp we run generator as needed..cost 1/2 gal of gas per hour (7.5 kohler). depending on weather refer needs run only every 5 or 6 hrs,holds overnight fine..hot water holds even longer...insulate everything before you cover it up...I use a lot of plastic elect conduit so wires can be replaced or extras run...a apartment size fridge can be had for under 300 and can be replaced any place and time..

[Doug1968]

Ednj, I can purchase the 1-1/8" tongue & grove for about the same price as a sheet of 1/2" 5 ply plywood. If I want to add a thermal break material in between, then two sheets of 1/2" is probably the way to go.

You are probably correct about the wheel well metal being for protection. It is very thin and I was wondering about replacing it with a thicker galvanized metal, maybe 16/18ga?

As Bevan6 has noted a layered floor with a thermal break is no doubt better than the thicker plywood. And you are correct, Gumpy's hydronic floor is nice but I wonder about how it will last?

Bevan6 makes a very good comment about making the higher initial investment and then only using the coach 20-30 night a year. I think it is wise to evaluate how much the coach will be used?

I like Cody's idea of isolating the flooring base from the metal framing structures. Not sure what I would use. If you think about the window technology for homes I believe that some of the better windows use wood as it has less heat transfer than aluminum or vinyl? Cody's idea of felt might work well.

Clifford, I have read about using lead in the area over the engine. Where do I find lead in sheets? How thick of material would I need?

JohnEd, I like the hydronic systems. I have a gas fired boiler in my house that supplies hot water to the air handler as well as all of our hot water needs. It works great and it would be nice have a similar system in the bus. I guess this would be the AquaHot/Wabasto systems? If you can find information on the Sperry system I would be interested in learning more about it.

My thought was to plumb the bus for hydronic, set the air handlers in place and then see how anxious I am to invest in the diesel fired heat source when I get the interior completed.

I would like some feedback on this idea. If I was to install a propane or electric furnace and an A/C unit in the bay could I use the OTR return ducting system for delivering the heat/AC to the bus? My thought was maybe I could install a duct run in the air return duct and branch off at given locations to move the air registers away from the aisle?

Your thoughts,

Doug

[luvrbus]

Doug, you buy the lead in sheets from a roofing supply and when you come to house I will show you my propane fired boilers for the hydro heat it is a lot cheaper to run than a diesel unit and has very little upkeep with all the same features without the smoke, stink, noise and hot exhaust .  


good luck

[bryanhes]

Clifford,

What type of hydro heat are you using? Any photos?

Thanks,
Bryan