Brand new... and scared!

[thejumpsuitman]

Hello wonderful bus people!

I am really worried about myself...  I just can't get buses off my mind!  We have had a few motorhomes in the past and have dealt with a lot of the negatives that go along with them...  Mainly water encroachment, flimsy design, weight limitations, poor power, handling, and of course, dry rot and delamination!  The seemingly unavoidable problems related to water is one of the things that got me even thinking about a bus.  But after reading some newbie horror stories, both here and elsewhere, I am wondering if a bus might be too much for me. 

I have never owned a diesel anything.  But I am a quick study and engross myself into anything I get interested in.  I am no mechanic, but I am mechanically inclined, and do many of my own repairs in general.  I recently met a wonderful gentleman locally who upgraded from a '52 PD-4103 to a newer MCI and wholeheartedly trusted his '52 to take him anywhere there were roads.  (Not sure if Gary from NC is a member here or not, but if so, Hello Gary!)  He had the bus sold, but still invited me to come and see it and ask any questions I might have.

He was selling it for $7,000, and after seeing it, it seems like the kind of thing I would be comfortable in.  What I mean is SIMPLICITY.  I seem to be drawn to the older GM buses probably for that reason and for economic reasons.  Especially the 4104 and 4106.  Also like the 4107/4903, but have heard they are hard to drive and that there may be other reasons to avoid them.(?)

I know anything could go wrong at any time, but it boils down to looking for something that would offer the best odds of trouble free operation  What are the best newbie buses out there?  I am a rabid bargain hunter, and thrive on finding a deal.  I am tenacious where that is concerned.  I have seen many older converted GM buses locally in the $5-$10k range and like the idea of finding something generally mechanically sound that just needs some upgrading.  What are the major systems to be most concerned with?  i.e. engine, transmission, brakes...

Any general advice would be greatly appreciated.  Especially on which models I might want to consider or stay away from. 

Thanks a million!
Marc

[bubbaqgal]

Welcome to insanity Marc!  I married a guy that loves buses and now he has me addicted also.  We have talked about moving up to something larger since we full time and he mentioned doing a truck conversion and I put my foot down.  I like buses, I want a bus and, everyone here can tell you.....I will NOT be disobeyed.    Being a bus nut is rewarding, challenging, terrifying and wonderful all in one package.  If you have questions please feel free to ask or check the archives.  Expect to get a variety of answers to every question because we are all very, very opinionated. 

[bevans6]

Welcome!  i got into this 6 months ago with a fairly converted 1980 MCI MC-5C.  I specifically was only interested in a 35' bus, for parking and manueverability reasons, I only wanted a bus that was already converted to a state that was very comfortably usable, and I was only interested in a bus that was good mechanically.  I was willing to pay for all of that, and I did, and I'm still happy with my choice.

You might well make your decisions about a lot of this up front, and stay focused on the outcome.  Many focus on what I think of as the conversion journey - buying a bus, turning it into a shell, doing the mechanical restoration, raising the roof, building the interior.  I think the costs of doing that haven't come down, although the bus shells are now pretty cheap.  Others, like me, wanted the complete package up front and looked for a good, solid conversion  with a known history that could be used that weekend.  I think the value of a completed conversion has fallen dramatically in the past couple of years, so good deals are out there.  I ended up doing a hundred or so hours of rewiring and replumbing, but that was because I had a different idea of what was right than the first guy did, so I did it over.  All I've really done to the bus is adjust the brakes, clutch, and drive it, although I am about to change the oil...

The final word is these are commercial vehicles, and you should expect to learn how to maintain and look after them.  In particular learn about the air brake systems, and how to check them daily.  But so far the reward is definitely there.  And they are a great excuse to get new tools!

Brian

[thejumpsuitman]

Thanks Brian,

Sounds like you started from where I want to start.  I think you would take the greatest beating on the initial conversion work, and I know I don't have the funds or patience to start from scratch.  Another major appeal of a bus to me is their longevity.  The example of that to me is my new friend Gary's.  He has driven his bus to Alaska 3 times from NC!  Talk about trusting your rig!  Of course, they were meant to last 1 million+ miles, but to me, if you are forced to do some kind of major rebuild, it would seem like you lost out on that perceived benefit.  Maintenance is one thing, but an expensive overhaul is another.  That could really bust your annual budget.  Again, I know that stuff does happen, but I would want to do my best do avoid that if possible.

Marc

[JackConrad]

Marc,
  Not so much one model/brand to steer clear of as much as condition-condition-condition. The different brands have different designs, not that one is better, just that they are different. This means trade-offs.  There are buses with T-drive and angle drive drive trains, torsilastic and air bag suspension, as well as differnet frame designs. They have advantages and disadvantages. If you find a bus you are interested in, pay a BUS mechanic to check it out for you. This will be the best money your bus.  Jack
PS: Welcome to the insanity.  

[Eagle Andy]

Hi Marc,   Welcome to the wonderful world of Bussing. lol I like you have owned several what some call S&S (sticks and stables) two years ago I sold my last coach that was a 2004 and all the bells and whistles , told my wife Am done and thats it. That lasted about 3 months lol started looking around and found the next best thing to HOT Rods . Went and looked it over and made the deal. Now I have been told I got a pretty good deal and so far I would agree. I have never owned anything with a Detroit before so it has been a real eye openner to say the least. And the things I have found that I changed were more of an upgrade then a need. I guess what Iam trying to say is learn all you can from the best. And there are quite a few on this board and others. But like Jack and others have said time and time again Get someone who can  look beyond the bling and give you a realistic view . Good luck and welcome to the nut house lol

[luvrbus]

Marc,welcome a good bus can be a lot of fun a bad one can be a nightmare so try and get it right the first time.
I disagree with some that call this a hobby it it far from it is more like a job.
When you buy remember buses are like a wife you take it for better or worse the only difference is the wife being easier to get rid of. LOL



good luck

[Marcus]

Hi Marc, We share the same name, even spelled the same. I got the bus bug 12 years ago. I had a 54 4104 for 4 years. Loved that bus ,especially the sound of that 6-71. Needed more room so I got a 82 mci 9. I did the whole conversion in my spare time. Now it is less expensive to buy turn -key. I would do it all over again. I took ours from florida to wyoming in 06 without any problems at all. Would do it all over again. The bus bug is incurable. Do your homework and enjoy. Marc

[Dreamscape]

Marc, Take your time and do your research on what you want to do with your bus, fulltime, boondock or just go camping and have fun. Try to find a good base, meaning, good sound mechanicals, including engine, tranny, brakes and a solid foundation. Once you have your budget in mind go to some rallies, meet some folk and talk buses. There are almost always a few for sale, you never know, you might find "The One".

Look around in your area, I assume NC is where you live. Have a true bus mechanic give it the once over and give you an honest report on his findings.

Have fun and welcome to our severe addiction!

PS...put as much info in your profile and signature you are comfortable with like location etc.

Paul

[gfcgfc1]

Hello Marc , A Bus or some call them a Coach, are the best! Yes you are doing the right thing.Do your homework.Look at more than one THINK how you want to use it. The bus market is a buyers market now.You win bigtime. Everyone here and a few other BBS will really help.Also look at many first hand.You will start to know what you like.Ask any question or use the 'search' function as your homework here. Everyone is Very helpful.WELCOME to the bus nut house!! :)GFC

[thejumpsuitman]

Wow,  thanks to everyone here who is so positive and helpful.  It is interesting that this bus fixation is being called a form of insanity or a disease in such a tongue-in-cheek fashion...  LOL.  I totally understand what is meant, though.  It must be one of those things that is difficult to justify quantitatively, but from the intangible standpoint of general satisfaction, and enjoyment, it's is all worth it.

From the standpoint of affordability and general personal interest, I am being drawn to the older GM models.  In fact, I had to run an errand about 30 miles away tonight and of all things, saw what looked like a 4104 or 4106 sitting in a fenced in storage lot.  It was a full-seated bus with Alabama plates on it.  Not for sale or anything, just interesting to have seen one now that I am interested.  Of course, I have probably passed by thousands of old buses without ever taking notice in the past.

Specific question... One thing I do remember my new friend Gary saying was that he had a hard time shifting a "Buffalo" bus that he test drove.  He mentioned something about a hydraulic clutch?  Anyone familiar with that or know why it is difficult to shift? 

Marc

[Barn Owl]

I think that the GM buses are a good way to go. The 4104 and the 4106s are extremely inexpensive compared to the other manufactures. I would not convert one from scratch, the low resale will cause too much of a loss if you sell it. If you are on the buying end of an already converted GM then you will probably get into this craziness at about the lowest cost possible. I love camping in the old, but very beautiful, state parks that are in my area. The lower height and 35' length makes that easier, and in some cases, it's the largest size possible or allowed (Like much of California I found out).

I took my old ugly GM4106, with an old wornout wheezy detroit (lots of starter fluid), and did 8500 miles of bus torture (many 10% grades and seven >10K ft mountain passes in the middle of nowhere) and did not get stranded.

Learn to use the search function and you will find a wealth of information on the GM buses. When I am searching I like to right click on the post summery from a search so I can open it in a new window. It makes it easier for me because sometimes the search page expires and you have to start over.

[RJ]

Marc -

The Buffalo GMCs (4107, 4108, 4903, 4905) have what are known as "wet clutches."

They are not hard to shift, they just shift differently from a coach that has a dry clutch.  As long as you can adapt to their quirks, you won't have a problem.

Do you want a stick or automatic?  Very rare to find a GMC with an OEM automatic, most that have them have been retrofitted.

Majority of GMCs are stick shifts, which can be an interesting challenge at Oh Dark Thirty when you're trying to wiggle into a campsite w/o irritating the neighbors much. 

Automatics are simply "stab & steer", comparatively.

You might find this interesting:

http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/12262/16204.html?1167073154

The venerable 4104 is the epitome of the Aesop Fable "The Tortoise & the Hare".  Can barely get out of it's own way when accelerating, but will run the fuel tank dry sitting on the governor at 65 mph.  Has to be rowed along with the shift lever a lot, but will make better time overall than the crew-cab Ford dually pulling a fifth-wheel.

4106s are affectionately known as the "sportscar of buses" because of their great stock power-to-weight ratio and nimble handling.  The chassis is basically a massaged 04, altho no exterior body panels interchange.  Early (61 - 62.5) had some engine bulkhead cracking problems, but the factory corrected that problem mid-62.  But definitely something that MUST be thoroughly checked when looking at a potential suspect prospect.

If you're more interested in 35-foot models, there are some very nice MC-5s available also, so don't overlook those.  (An MC-5C with a 6V92TA hooked to an HT-740 Allison is a real hot rod, btw)  Some say there's better part availability with the MCIs, so that's a thought to ponder.

Welcome to the insanity - the next tour leaves from Gate 1B, please have your ticket available. . .

FWIW & HTH. . .

[thejumpsuitman]

I think that the GM buses are a good way to go. The 4104 and the 4106s are extremely inexpensive compared to the other manufactures. I would not convert one from scratch, the low resale will cause too much of a loss if you sell it. If you are on the buying end of an already converted GM then you will probably get into this craziness at about the lowest cost possible.

Barnowl, you are speaking my language!  I suspected this was the case based on my browsing.  It would seem some interior upgrading would not be nearly as expensive as the initial preparations to convert a bus.  Dollar for dollar, sounds like reliability is cheaper with an old GM.

Marc

[thejumpsuitman]

Marc -

The Buffalo GMCs (4107, 4108, 4903, 4905) have what are known as "wet clutches."

They are not hard to shift, they just shift differently from a coach that has a dry clutch.  As long as you can adapt to their quirks, you won't have a problem...



The venerable 4104 is the epitome of the Aesop Fable "The Tortoise & the Hare".  Can barely get out of it's own way when accelerating, but will run the fuel tank dry sitting on the governor at 65 mph.  Has to be rowed along with the shift lever a lot, but will make better time overall than the crew-cab Ford dually pulling a fifth-wheel.



If you're more interested in 35-foot models, there are some very nice MC-5s available also, so don't overlook those.  (An MC-5C with a 6V92TA hooked to an HT-740 Allison is a real hot rod, btw)  Some say there's better part availability with the MCIs, so that's a thought to ponder.

Good stuff.  Thanks.  And you have reinforced my ideas on the old GMs.  I will look into the MC-5's as well.  Haven't come across nearly as many of those.  Also loved the article on shifting.  Thanks.

Marc