tag axle update , again

[busshawg]

Well I think I may have the won battle with that nasty tag. I was having drinks with a neighbor of mine friday night and mentioned I wil have to pull the axle. Well saturday morning he called and said "are you ready to tackle it?" Absolutly I told him. He cam over with some air over hydralic puller pusher things. I brought my tractor around to the side, hooked up a chain and with a threaded load bind, I put LOTS of pressure on it, Enough that the back drives on the bus showed some side ways pressure. Then I put some , not a lot of heat on the axle tube and we went to work moving the axle back and forth with the hydralic tools he brought along. Keeping LOTS of pressure on the chain it started coming out. After about 2 hours of working it back and forth it finally came out. The bushing actually looks really good, not scared or pounded out at any point, however the axle shows rust. Enough that the axle is still rough after hitting it with a wire brush on a grinder. It was very , very dry. I'm thinking I will use some fairly aggressive emery cloth to shine it up the best I can and put it back together and see how much if any play there will be.   

Grant

[NewbeeMC9]

PICS!

[JohnEd]

Grant,

I too want pics....if you can do that.  I was/am really interested in how you did that and I was waiting for an update and looking forward.

When you say "back and forth" do you mean "up and down" with the axel?  Is the air over hydraulic on of those 20 ton jewels from Harbor Freight?  I have one and have used it a lot.  My Bud saw it work once and bought two for the shop.  Is there a corner of any bus anywhere that that thing can't lift. 

Your problem has been on the board before.  I have never heard how the Knut made out.  Really glad you tied up this loose end(you wish, right?).

It sounds like the bushing assembly came out with the axle still on it, true?  If there is play what is the solution?

Great news so far.  Good on ya!

John

[busshawg]

Sorry guys, I was so full of grease and oil I didn't dare , or should I say my wife would have never let me come close to the camera haha. It is a dirty job, and I had to have a mind set before even starting it on saturday. I CAN WIN THIS!  However I can take a few pics of the axle lying on the ground beside the bus if you wish.

Ed , yes I did mean up and down. I'm not sure what brand the hydralic tools were , but my neighbor has a autobody shop and I believe he uses these tools for bending frames or straightening whatever. They worked like a charm. Saved countless hours of jacking and pulling together with manual tools. We were thinking of putting a rim on backwards so it sticks past the side of the bus, and then using the tow truck or tractor loader  to move it up a down , but by using this method we would have more control, and be able to stop quicker if something started to bend. We used the shock mounts for jacking and pulling points. The axle was so seized when I first started this that I was breaking chains. I had the back of the bus jacked up by only the tag axle and then pulled the shock mounts together. The first chain actually broke.

The bushing did STAY in the axle tube and to my surprise looks to be in very good condition. It's not like I am putting 100,000 miles on this thing every year so I think I will allow for a small amount of play when it goes back together, however if there is a substantial amount I will follow Jacks procedure. First of all I will get the specs on a new bushing and compare with my old one. If it is wore I will cut out and replace, if not I will get the axle resurfaced and lathed down or replace the axle. I was truly amazed of the pressure that was needed to get this thing out. I believe , and hope it will be fine with some GREASE.

Guys, I don't believe you can over grease these things. It was very very dry , even after the 15 to 20 tubes of grease I pumped through it. Just wasn't getting to where it need to be.

I believe another tip I learnt is,  it is easier to jack the tag DOWN once it seized. When going into this I thought it would be the other way around. I thought jacking it up it would surely have to break loose, but the bus moves. When jacking down from between the shock mounts one of two things is going to happen, either the frame will crack or your axle will move , in other words something HAS to give. Thank goodness it was the axle. I also believe that proper greasing proceedure for these tags would be to put the drives up on blocks , ramps whatever, to allow the tag to drop lower than the drives then grease. Then again with the tags in the up position. This places the grease in the axle tube and the furthest points oppisite each other in the axle tube.

I will try to get some pics tonight before I get covered in grease, thanks again for eveyones help and interest.

Grant

[JackConrad]

Grant,
    Glad to hear it is going well.  When we replaced our bushing, the tag axle was pitted from rust. We cleaned it with a whire wheel and put it in the new bushing. Play was within tolerances.  We grease ours about every 3000 miles. Probably overkill but better to help support the grease industry than have to do what you are doing now.  Jack

[junkman42]

Grant, if You will get some cloth backed abrasive cloth in strip form about 1.5 inch wide would be good and take a double wrap around the rusty shaft and see saw it causing it to run up and down the shaft You will wind up with a shaft that is still round.  I would start with 120 grit and finish with 240 or higher if available.  You can use light oil or mineral spirits etc to lubricate the shaft as you sand it.  You can get the cloth backed strip at NAPA and probably others but napa for sure. Do not use flapper wheels to clean rust off of a shaft or bearing surface as the flapper wheel will leave abrasive particles imbedded in the surfaces.  Hope all works out fine.  If You could I would like a picture of the grease fitting location on the tube.  On my MC7 I can find only one fitting per side!  If You use about a three foot strip of abrasive cloth You can remove a lot of material quick!  If You are already used to this method ignore Me please.  Good luck ,John

[busshawg]

Sorry your axle was pitted Jack , but I'm glad to hear it, if that makes any sense. Also glad to hear it was all within specs. I will probably attempt replacing it tonight.

Thanks for the pointers John, I have already picked up some emery cloth just as you have described and I am familiar with the process. I just have never done this procedure on such a rough surface. I don't want to take much off of it , just enough to get rid of any loose rush or sharp edges. I actually believe that rust in this manor might work to my advantage as it will allow for a little more grease to be able to get around the axle.

Grant

[Don4107]

Grant, I think If I were in the same boat I would have done and agree with everything you have done, well almost, not sure I would have driven it with the frozen tag but hey... right up until leaving any rust on the shaft.  Rust will spawn more rust and is very abrasive.  Better to clean it to a nice shiny surface and deal with the bushing if it is out of tolerance than doing this again.

Best of luck
Don 4107 sans tags

[JohnEd]

I think Don has a good point.  You can't sand the rust out of the dimples.  Wood dissolving the last of the rust out with Naval Jelly be a good move?

It was said that the bus won't ever go another 100K miles and that should temper the repair effort with some reality.  Still, I would go for the limits of "spec". Lots of comments here about the tags having a bad affect on steering and tire wear.  Hope you can get by with it without any further expense.

John

[busshawg]

Hopefully this is my last update as the axle went in last night, just waiting for my new air bag to show from MCI. Between different chemicals and a light sanding the axle didn't look too bad. So I greased it and the bushing up, and replaced it. There is a min. amount of play so I'm going to try to run it and keep a close eye for tire wear.  There is no play in it after all the parts were reassembled. I want to change tire sizes anyway so I am prepare to eat the cost of a tire if it does start to wear funny. The axle moves up and down beautifully now. No binding etc. , just works great. Another little tip if any of you are doing this, don't grease the axle through the zerks if you don't have the pancake clamp replaced. I thought I would, and it just started pushing the axle out , I had to remove the grease zerk , push the axle back in pushing the grease out, and then re install the zerk and carry on. Pretty much common sense i guess , but I'm not sure what I'm lacking , being common or the sense part.

Junkman

Sorry I didn't get pics but I will try to describe where the zerks are. I think the one you are probably finding is near the centre of the axle tube facing down, this one applys grease into the tube just past the end of the bushing, keeping the tube at the inner most part full of grease. Does not place grease directly between the bushing and axle, it forces the grease inbetween the axle and bushing from the end of the axle

Then there are the two zerks on the top and bottom of the pancake clamp. These are important as well as they do have access to the axle. If   you apply grease to these zerks and the grease just wants to push out from around the edges, where the o-rings are your o-rings may not be seated properly in the panckae clamp. There are grooves for the o-ring to sit in, however mine had rust and crud in them forcing the o-ring to not sit properly and giving the grease easy access to escape, therefore the grease doesn't get forced into the proper locations. Also it allows water to enter the tube.

The one I think people probably miss is the zerk facing down , outside centre of the axle tube just to the inside of the pancake clamp. I is very hard to see as it is located pretty much between the axle tube and the engine craddle, (frame). You have to get your head directly undernieth the axle tube to see it. Once you know where it is you can feel it fairly easily , however greasing it without see leaves the chance that your grease gun isn't fitted properly on the fitting allowing grease to escape at thefitting , rather than going into the tube. Again , outside bottom of the tube , just inside of the pancake clamp. This one also greases directly between the axle and bushing via a hole in the bushing.

Last
I installed a zerk near the first zerk I described, (near the centre of the tube facing down). If you look at your axle tube you will probably find a hex shaped plug about 3 or 4 inches to the outside of the centre most zerk. When I had my axle out I noticed a hole in the bushing at this loaction. So I removed the plug and a zerk screws right in. This places the grease directly between the axle and the bushing, not like the zerk that is located more to the centre, which places the grease at the end of the axle, then forcing it between the bushing and axle from there. I sure hope this is making sense to someone, haha.

Anyway it is almost together and moving up and down very freely. Thanks once again to everyone for all the help, this was a job I was dreading. Would not have got it done with out ya.

Grant

[Stormcloud]

Good to hear its fixed!
Im thinking there would need to be an awful lot of play in that bushing before it amounted to any tire wear. I bet its gonna be just fine as it is.

And Autopac wants me to take Papabus to a heavy equipment/body repair place for a better guesstimate before commencing any work, or proceeding with the claim.

Theres only 1 in Brandon, and I wont take the bus there...quality issues, etc.

Know of any good, large shops nearby?

Mark

[busshawg]

I hoping it will be okay, think it will be.

As far as heavy equip shops I'll give it soem thought, I now the neighbour that helped me remove my axle works on some big trucks, I can check with him.

[JohnEd]

Is that plug intended as a pressure relief hole that directs the flow of the greasewhile you are inserting grease?

Thanks,

John

[busshawg]

No John there is a seperate relief port for that, it has a tube that goes over the top of the axle, different deal.

Grant