WVO problem

[JohnEd]

Guys,

I have read a lot about using WVO in the mechanical engines.  The woods are full of people with nothing but rave reviews.  All, and I mean ALL, the university tests indicate nothing but disaster from WVO but all that I have read only ran the engine for 10 hours, or so, and extrapolated the final result from deposits from that short run.  Still, the woods are full of success stories.  Herr Diesel ran his first diesel engine on "PEANUT OIL".  Remember that saying about a pic being worth a thousand words?  This post is worth millions at least.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=186108

John

[JohnEd]

And right after that:

I have read a few horror stories about wvo but it is 99% of the time
user error. Either they did not do what they were supposed to or
should not have done it with the engine they used at all.
There are alos thousands of people using it and loving it. Just bear
in mind, it's NOT dino fuel and can not be treated as such. It's not
just "pump in and turn the key". But it is a TON cheaper!!!! And a
little work has to be included.
Chaz

So you go figure

John

[Van]

John ,this is the system Peach and Illya used on their bus
Episode 6: The One Shot Filtration Unit Demonstration
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwRJ6bt-uuo&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.goldenfuelsystems.com%2FFlorida_Matters.html&feature=player_embedded#t=129
http://www.goldenfuelsystems.com/

[kyle4501]

I'm not against any alternative fuel.
I am against using hype & emotional 'logic' ( instead of science based logic ) to promote it.


99% user error?
That's a mighty broad excuse that brings a certain bovine excrement aroma with it. 
Isn't that also saying 99% of the people using wvo aren't smart enough to do it right?
Or that it isn't as easy & earth friendly as some would have you to believe - junking cars before their time isn't very green. 

There are many real reasons WVO hasn't gone mainstream. The conspiracy theories are nothing but emotional distractions.

The fact is that an engine designed to run on dino diesel isn't going to run as well on wvo.
Let's not forget all the extra effort that goes into obtaining & processing the wvo. It ain't easy being green.


There are those out there running WVO who are happy with it. But those who have exceeded 50,000 miles are very few when you consider how many have tried WVO.


Would be great if the hype would stop so the genuine truth could be heard. Then people could make an informed decision rather than take a leap of faith based upon the deception of half truths & hidden facts.


If someone is looking into WVO, please do real homework, rather than simply drinking the coolaid.


BTW, not much being said about B100 diesel these days. . . . I wonder why? Could it be that it too couldn't live up to the hype?

[JohnEd]

Kyle,

Your reservations are common and your scepticism isn't all that unique, either(besides being healthy).  One of my first really big chunks of heart burn was with the SALT that is used in fryers and knowing that SALT would be a disaster in an engine.  Common sense told me that the salt would be left behind after the oil burned....right? Turned out that SALT cannot be dissolved in oil.  Who Gnu?  Lots of unsuspected facts and "real" info out there.  Your 50K mile mark has been exceeded by many....if you believe the BB's and their testimonials.

For me, I would like to see the engine that has 20K miles on it torn down and the internal condition documented.  It is not arguable that B100 and SVO have a much greater ability to lubricate and the engines that use those fuels should last longer from a wear standpoint.  In Europe, 3% content Bio is mandated by law and I think that is going to 5%. 

Bio and WVO as fuels gain popularity with the increase in fuel costs.  Our local used car lot that caries Bio and WVO cars and installs systems is out of business.  Went Gang busters for a while and he made a ton.  When fuel prices dropped, the demand disappeared.  WVO is a filthy way to get fuel.  And you need to get WVO to get B100.  B100 is sensitive to the manufacturing process and if it doesn't meet spec it will ruin your engine.  Takes a lot more than 1 tank though....still.

2 cents,

John

[kyle4501]

When the salesman holds up a sample of WVO & says 'this is what you're looking for, nice & clear, you really don't have to filter it 'cause there's nothing in it', then takes out a 10 micron filter that after 100 gallons already has objectionable flow restriction & shows all the fine sediment that was trapped. . . . Hell YES I'm gonna be skeptical! 


John, I'm not talking claimed 50,000 miles on WVO with dino used when WVO wasn't available, I'm talking about miles on straight WVO (backed up with full documentation concerning all service) and the miles run on dino not included in the 50,000. BTW, I didn't say it hasn't happened, I said "those who have exceeded 50,000 miles are very few when you consider how many have tried WVO." I still stand by that statement. I also wish it weren't true. I question why it is the exception & not the rule. 

And no, I don't believe all the BB's & testimonials. I more apt to believe someone who isn't trying to sell me something.
I do believe the numerous friends & associates that have tried alternative fuels out. I have seen some attempts that were half @$#-ed & some that were full blown over the top. None were successful in coming close to the hype. Some concluded with no apparent mechanical damage, just wasn't worth the total cost. Others suffered the meltdown as the first video demonstrated.

Be careful of the hype, once legislated into law, its permanent. 
Gasohol is a sham that made lots of money for a few & didn't live up to the promises either. (Sure it can be made from corn, but at a cost that isn't competitive in a free market with gasoline.)
I feel that the possible benefits of bio-diesel have been oversold while the short comings have been suppressed. (Things like the limited shelf life or the fact that it reacts with water to make something you can't use in your engine are not mentioned much.)


RE: " if it doesn't meet spec it will ruin your engine.  Takes a lot more than 1 tank though...."
I'm not a big fan of diminishing the damage done to an engine either.



Here is an example of bad/ incomplete information leading to an unexpected expense:

In high school, how many of us were told that we could remove the air cleaner on our car to get more power? It's true, less restriction = more air = more power.
You'll notice more power & you can travel a great many miles without an air cleaner before noticeable damage.

But, we all know that the dust & dirt will act as an abrasive inside the cylinders. We also know that some gets past the rings & into the oil which then starts the abrasive action on the bearings.
So, slowly the performance will diminish. We may not even notice it since it is so gradual. Most upgraded before the damage was obvious or we attributed the damage to something else.


I broke stuff on my '69 SS396 Chevelle all the time - U-joints, clutches, gears, etc. . . . But none of it was from driver abuse.  I always found something else to blame so I wouldn't have to change the driving habits I enjoyed. 


Re "the woods are full of success stories",
The woods were full of moonshiners during prohibition & lots of people suffered from lead poisoning too. . . . .



Strange how the university test results & engineers are believed when they say something that saves you $$.
But let them point to the holes in the back yard theories & they are all idiots or worse. . . . 



When it comes to something as expensive as a bus engine, be careful of the potential cost vs. benefit ratio.
YMMV

[JohnEd]

Kyle,

I was agreeing with you.....in the main.  And I am not defending the stuff, really.  It is a complicated decision regardless.  I am with you in having a contempt for the BS salesmen, and never doubt that.

You raised some interesting points.

John

[Hartley]

My Cub Cadet mower with the Kohler 23 hp engine smokes now due to that 10%
alcohol mixture. I have had no end of small engine problems from it.

Many of the small engine repair shops have been complaining of worn out or finicky engines due to the alcohol that degrades the fuel systems.

As for the WVO, All is well if you clean it and use it marginally. There are many
problems that make it questionable which may include Injector/Pump damage, wear and a tendancy for it to retain excess water. It also loves to clog filters due to some sort of crystalization, sucks rust or makes tanks rust more and that usually ends up in the filters. It also affects fuel gauges and makes them flakey.
The main problem is that acids remain and those cause most of the problems.

One other thing that I found the hard way.. Ford SuperDuty trucks that get wvo mixtures in thier tanks will eventually have pickup tube problems. Mine started slowly and then became a problem when the plastic tube/rubber tube pickup
extension hardened and then disolved in the tank.
The filter screens are up on the fuel pickup tube in a housing and they get
clogged, When I couldn't get fuel I ended up pulling the sender/pickup assembly
and found bits of it missing including the extension tube.

Guess what I found in the screens?

Clotted remains of WVO residue... Crusty-Rusty junk.

Now, I fixed the pickup tube problem, cleaned the screens and put it all back
together and it works fine now. But all of this was not before having to be towed once, 2 $31.00 Ford SD Fuel filter units and a bunch of power loss headaches.

Ok, So what did I learn.... Use only Pure Filtered Oil that is devoid of color as possible, Heat and Filter it to hell and back. And the best thing is always use
an auxillary tank for NON-Diesel fuels. And always have the tools and extra filters on hand to correct your mistakes along with a good towing service...

Of the engines that I have tried it in, The best was an Isuzu 4BD1T truck engine with a second being a Kubota Engine. I ran 100 gallons mixed with clean diesel
for 700 miles with a 6V92T MUI engine with no ILL effects. ( Cause they heat the oil when it flows back to the fuel tank )...

The bottom line is that WVO is not worth the aggravation that it can and will cause even if it is a good deal. Eventually everything can have problems no matter what the fuel is made from.

If it's whatcha got and it works or you then run with it....

Dave....

[belfert]

My Cub Cadet mower with the Kohler 23 hp engine smokes now due to that 10%
alcohol mixture. I have had no end of small engine problems from it.

10% ethanol is mandated in gasoline here in MN.  But, a few stations sell 93 octane that is pure gasoline (Off road use only).  I started buying that this summer for my small engines since thcost is 20 cents or so a gallon more than regular.  I never had any problems with ethanol in my small engines, but decided better safe than sorry.

[pabusnut]

I ran WVO in my Jetta TDI, using a GreaseCar kit, and had virtually no trouble.  The only trouble with it is collecting the WVO, filtering it, storing it, etc.  It ran great in my car, and I seemed to have no loss of power.  It does need to be heated, and I always started on diesel, and then switched over to WVO once the temp hit about 160 deg. F.  Then to shutdown, there is a purge cycle that pushes diesel back through the lines to the tank.  At the time, I was commuting 104 miles per day and diesel was nearly $5/gallon, so even at 42-45 MPG I was saving money.

The real problem I had was when the wife tried to save me money by driving the car, without fully understanding which direction to push the switch!  Yup, she drove it 30 miles, and called me on the cell phone to tell me there was something the matter with the car, as WVO was leaking out of the trunk.  When I got there with the 14MPG Suburban and tow dolly to tow the 45 MPG car back home, I discovered she had put the switch in the wrong position(PURGE) when she started and proceeded to pump diesel into the WVO tank.  What a mess, but at least my spare tire and wheel and trunk will never rust, from the oil coating.

Another challenge in my area is that the rendering companies are now paying resturants for their WVO, so getting it for free is getting tougher.  I now only drive 40 miles per day, so the amount of time I can run WVO is lower, since the engine, and tank must be hot to make the switch.  I figure I would only be able to run on WVO for about 15-20 of those miles.

If I had frequent long trips I would still be running it in my jetta. 



I would not even consider it in the bus unless  I were driving it on a weekly basis.

PAbusnut

[RickB]

Isn't Ilya replacing a motor right now??? I think someone should contact him to find out why his motor blew up.

Maybe that will clear some of the passionate smoke surrounding this endlessly controversial issue...

Just a thought.

rb

[kyle4501]

From the thread concerning a possible replacement engine:

"honestly all i know is 2 things happened to the old engine....it ran REALLY low on motor oil (though john said that would not cause it to overheat), and our turbo was shot.  Those are the only things i know were wrong and somehow resulted in me having a cracked block."



I believe engine oil is a major coolant in an engine. If the wrong oil is used, engine temp can be effected.
I thought it common knowledge that using the wrong oil can cause excessive oil consumption. . . .

The worst part about WVO affects/ effects is that some want to believe it will work so badly that they disregard anything negative.

No one wants to spend the money required to prove what the preliminary lab test show.


If you look at it from the money side, there is no proffit potential from proving it will or won't work long term. There is money to be made selling 'kits' to use WVO.

Interesting the engine manufacturers adamantly state all warranties are null & void if WVO is used - Think of the increased sales advantage they'd have if they were to approve WVO. The reality is that this advantage evaporates quickly when the problems start - as history & their own testing shows will happen - but wait, that's all part of the conspiracy theory . . . 

[Busted Knuckle]

"honestly all i know is 2 things happened to the old engine....it ran REALLY low on motor oil (though john said that would not cause it to overheat), and our turbo was shot.  Those are the only things i know were wrong and somehow resulted in me having a cracked block."



I believe engine oil is a major coolant in an engine. If the wrong oil is used, engine temp can be effected.
I thought it common knowledge that using the wrong oil can cause excessive oil consumption. . . .

. . . 

Kyle, you 100% correct! one of the jobs oil does is help COOL as well as lubricate an engine!
And not only can using the wrong oil cause excessive consumption, but excessive heat build up!
(which is one of the reasons 40W is speced instead of 15W40! in 2 strokes!)
FWIW   BK 

Oh and sometimes engines just blow without warning, but there is usually a reason even if it is not obvious!

[kyle4501]

Oh and sometimes engines just blow without warning, but there is usually a reason even if it is not obvious!

If it starts, I've simply ignore the warnings & hope it lasts long enough to finish just one more trip. 

There is ALWAYS a reason. We may not be 'smart' enough to see it, it may be something well outside or circle of influence, or we may simply not want to admit the cause. . . .