8V92 leaking oil

[paul102a3]

Oil leak update- I cleaned all the oil from the engine and rear of the coach. Early this week, I ran a 22 mile city loop and not a drop of oil to be seen anywhere. Max speed was 44 mph and that was just for a few minutes.

Today, I ran a 42 mile mostly highway loop to a destination where I parked the bus and shut off the engine for a few hours. When I returned, there was at least a tablespoon or two of oil drips on the parking lot from what appears to be the front main seal.  I ran the reverse trip home and have the same situation, oil dripping from the cross member located right under the main seal. I have an oil diaper under the area to see exactly how much is leaking.

It appears that there is enough oil leaking under highways speeds that it is being thrown by centrifugal force so it mists the back of the bus.

The bus is still very hot so I haven't crawled under to check the bell housing area or the alternator but a quick look shows the rear of the engine to be oil free.

As it sits right now and baring any new info, it looks like I am in for a new front main seal.

If anyone has any other thoughts, please let me know before I spend the money to replace the seal.

Thanks,

Paul

[Sojourner]

Paul...has your engine oil been check for excessive diesel fuel. That can cause seals leakage. If you are getting fuel in oil...you may fuel line leaking under valve cover.

How much engine oil in 1000 miles? One or two quarts or more? If not much...it could be the fuel helping to maintain oil level somewhat.

If the crankcase breather tube from the valve covers show no blow-by under load via auto transmission in drive with fully applied brake on. Have someone look for smoke coming out of breather. If none...you have good compression rings.

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald

[paul102a3]

Gerald,

Thanks for the info. I did both an oil and coolant analysis about 1500 miles ago and everything was normal. The oil level is dropping rather quickly so I don't suspect fuel in the oil but I will pull a sample just to be sure.

I put short extensions on the breather tubes and air box drains along with collector bottles so I can better monitor any discharge. After this short trip, all the collectors were dry. There was a small drop of stuff at the end of each airbox drain but I understand this is normal.

I'll let you all know the outcome after my visit to DD.

Thanks again for everyones advice. It makes owning one of these beasts a lot easier knowing there is help at the other end of the keyboard.

Paul

[NJT5047]

What you describe is how seals leak.    I had exactly the same complaint with a rear main seal leak.  As long as you kept the speed below 60 MPH it wouldn't leak.  Get out on the interstate and it would leak big-time.   Scared the poop out of me.   Oil literally coverd the bus backside.  
I'd want to see the old spacer and seal out of curiosity.
My devious mind can see someone charging for a seal and wear ring (a spacer behind the harmonic balancer) and installing only the seal.  You'll be a good many miles down the road before problems pop up...and way out of shop warranty period.   And the mechanic gets 5 hours for a job description that only took two hours to complete....?
Wear rings can be difficult to remove.  Real PITA sometimes.   The balancer spacer, if it was replaced per your history, should come off without too much trouble.   And it shouldn't have an obvious wear indentation since it has only a few thousand miles of wear.  
The old seal will have small "oil screws" that move the oil back into the engine.  They should be correct for a RH engine.
The only other thought is to make sure that the oil pan gasket isn't causing your problem.
I vote for a new front engine seal...JR

[luvrbus]

Paul, if you are planing on a DIY job the inner cone as it it called has a seal on the inside also don't forget to install it or you will have a leak.
Also if your pulley has the 1 1/2 inch bolt inside the pulley it requires a special puller that screws into the pulley the other pulley and the harmonic balancer can be removed with a good 2 bolt puller.    good luck

[paul102a3]

I have the version that requires the special puller so it is off to DD in the morning to have the seal replaced. I told the service manager that I will be staying on site and want the old parts returned. They were fine with that and promissed not to charge extra for me hanging a round.

I just realized that I did not update on the alternator oil leak. It appears that oil leak is extremely small. In the 100+ miles I have driven since the area was cleaned, there is not one drop of oil. I think I had two issues, I think there is a small oil leak at the alternator but I also found that there was a small coolant leak in the pipe located right above the alternator that supplies hot water to the heating system. I suspect the oil and coolant were mixing resulting in a worse looking situation than really existed.

As an aside, has anyone noticed a problem with leaking coolant hoses when switching to CAT extended life coolant.

I have a Cummins in my boat and switched the coolant to CAT extended life after 2 years. Shortly after, I had numerous drips where coolant hoses joined steel pipes. The PO of my bus had replaced the coolant with CAT extended life about 6 months prior to my purchase and I am now seeing the same thing. I have found 4 separate connections that have small drips. In all cases, a little tightening of the hose clamps stopped the leaks.

What really surprised me about the boat is the hose clamps are the type that have the big spring that is supposed to adjust for expansion and contraction.

I'll let you know how the seal change goes.

Paul

[paul102a3]

Update - I had the bus at DD 7:30 this AM. DD had the bus in the service bay at 8:17 and the pulleys, harmonic balancer and inner cone/wear ring were off in less than an hour.

After looking at the wear ring, it is clear that it was NOT replaced when the seal was changed the last time. For that matter, I don't know if the seal was really changed or if the PO was ripped off.

Of interest, there were three distinct wear rings with the two outer rings about a 1/2 inch apart. The third wear ring was split about 60/40 between the outer rings.

So either the seal was replaced several times over the last 21 years and was installed in a slightly different location or the wear ring was from another motor but new to this motor or the wear ring was shimmed to expose a new surface or lastly, the crankshaft is moving fore and aft about 1/2 inch.

One last item of interest, the steel face of the seal which has the part number, instructions to install dry and is also stamped RH (for right hand I assume) was bent out at the bottom. I don't think that has any effect on the sealing characteristics but it does indicated a poor installation.

DD has the seal and the O-ring that goes inside the wear ring in stock but did not have the wear ring itself. They claim there are different lengths and had to have the correct one shipped from another facility across state. They should have the parts by tomorrow afternoon and buttoned up shortly thereafter.

FWIW, I had no idea how easy it was to replace the seal. I could have done this myself probably faster than DD. The technician could not figure out how the get the AC compressor belts off the crankshaft pulleys.  I had to show him how to remove the belts from the compressor side first and then the crankshaft. He looked pretty pathetic after I gently educated him.

Thats all for now.

Paul

[paul102a3]

I got the bus back this afternoon and all seems well. I will take the bus out this weekend for a long run and make sure there is no more leaking oil.

I did some research with the help of the DD parts dept and the wear ring/cone was NOT replaced when the seal was changed in 2003.

Is it common practice to use the old wear ring/cone or are the parts generally replaced as a set?

The old seal has what appears to be a part number stamped on it which is 23511486. Both the invoice from 2003 and today have the part number listed as 23514608. Is the number stamped on the seal supposed to match the actual part number or do they represent different things?

On another note, DD tried to rip me on the labor costs. They claim it took 4.5 hours to do the job so they tried to hit me up for some big bucks. I was able to demonstrate to them the complete time line from when I arrived, to the time the tech started to work on the bus to the time he finished the disassembley. The techs time was 1 hour & 5 minutes. I asked the shop foreman how it could possible take 3 hours & 25 minutes to install the seal and put everything back when it took 1:05 to pull everything apart.

I almost fell down when he said "if you weren't back there the other day, you wouldn't know how long the job took" implying it doesn't matter what the actual time was, this is what we think you can afford.

At this point, the receptionist disappeared and came back a few minutes later and reduced the labor by 1.5 hours. She told me after the foreman had left that she didn't like his answer so she went over his head.

I guess the moral of the story is it pays to be vigilant.


Paul

[NJT5047]

Part numbers on invoices often don't match the 'casting' numbers.   The vendor stamps the numbers.  Distributors often use different numbers, or combination of numbers so that their part numbering system works. 
Regarding the time...most shops work on a flat rate basis.  Whatever the flat-rate book says is what it is.  Usually.   If flat-rate gives a mechanic 5 hours but he completes the job in two, he gets his percentage of 5 hours.  This can be rather lucrative for both mechanic and shop.   More completed ops for the shop, more bucks for the mechanic.  Also induces some mechanics to shortcuts.  FWIW.
Mature equipment (bus conversions often fall into this group) is usually time'n materials...or flat-rate--whichever is greater. 
Your experience is one reason most shops don't want customers in the work area. 
The wear rings can be turned around on some models.   Or the seal can be slightly repositioned to avoid the worn groove area.   Or, sometimes the mechanic is just crap and does poor work.   Teflon seals should have a new smooth surface to work into.  The teflon acutally 'mills' in a matching seal surface on the wear ring (cone, spacer, etc).   
The front crank seals are not 'set' matched.  They may be application (engine series) matched. 
Rear main seals ARE set matched to the diameter of the wear ring, or the crank.  They have various sizes due to the lack of a wear ring on original cranks. 
If the steel housing of the seal was deformed prior to removing the seal, the prior job was crap.   The seal was likely driven in with a drift.    A seal driver should be used to install seals.   However, most shops would go broke buying special tools for all comers...so creative mechanic skills are useful. 
Being 'vigilant' is good as long as it doesn't piss off a good mechanic.   Maintaining a relationship with a good shop and keeping the price down is an art form.   This is especially true when trying to get good service work on a 2 stroke. 
Good luck with your project!  JR

[luvrbus]

Paul, both seals are the same even with different numbers DD does a group parts number the 1st was for a 6v92 or 8v92 and the last seal was the group number for 6V92 or 8v92 notice the 6 0 8  that is a DD part
92 series will have the number 51 in their parts number.  
The 6v92 and the 8v92 have the same oil pump and will have different group numbers.    

good luck

[paul102a3]

JR. Thanks for your insight on shop rates. I thought long and hard before I questioned the bill for the very reason you stated, I will most likely need these folks again. I learned a long time ago it is better to maintain relationships over a few dollars here and there.

The primary issue in this case was the shop stated the job would be billed on an hourly rate and then tried to to hit me with the flat rate price. 

The hourly rate was understood by all parties before the job was started. They even had me sign a document that spelled out the hourly rate for the job when I dropped off the bus. We agreed before hand that it would be beneficial if I could prep the bus as much as possible to reduce the billable hours. I therefore removed the rear bumper and the hitch receiver which took me about 20 minutes.

My point is it is all about meeting the customers expectations. If the customer is told one thing and it changes, this leads to difficulties.

The one thing I did not mention is that the shop foreman went off on me telling me that when he goes to Walmart, he doesn't question the prices at the time of checkout. I tried to explain I was just looking for a brakedown of the labor hours and then he made a comment about how much money I must have to be able to afford a toy like the bus.

All in all, it was not a pleasent experience.

Paul

[luvrbus]

In all my years dealing with a Detroit dealer I never heard of one having a flat rate Stewart and Stevenson,Smith and WW Williams will furnish you a copy of the techs time card.
There is no way they could use a flat rate like a automotive shop to many different engine applications.
Sound like you had a jerk for shop foreman most shop foremans will deduct time without being ask because they know the guys will do other jobs and forget to clock out on your job. 
That has been my experence with the DD dealers in the west anyway.
The truck shops are a different breed they will get you for all they can and more like charging 35.00 more per hr than the normal shop rate because you are a RV when I see that out the door I go.

good luck

[paul102a3]

Oil leak is fixed.

We took the bus out yesterday for a long highway run. Stopped at the Wildwood exit off of I-75 here in Florida to have the wheels polished opened the engine bay with crossed fingers and not a drop of oil anywhere.

After they finished the wheels, I checked the oil level and it was exactly where it should have been so all is well in bus land.

Thanks again for everyones input. It was very helpful to rule out other possible oil leak sites and I learned a lot in the process.

Paul

[steve5B]

  PAUL,

   I've got the same problem with mine, 8v-92 natural. I went yesterday to the local DD shop and purchased that seal and

   heading to another shop to have it installed today.   The price for that seal here in Indianapolis at DD was $19.89. 

  So, don't be taken by the price somewhere else.

   Steve 5B.......

[bevans6]

I usually use CR sleeves to repair the wear surface that a seal would ride on.  Is there a reason why this wouldn't work, if I were to plan to do this job on my engine?  Or is it really the deal to pull the thing apart, get the wear ring, and order one to match?

Thanks, brian