Series 60 verses good old two stroke

[Lin]

I was looking at a bus that has a Series 60 engine.  It seemed attractive because it has almost twice the hp of my 8v71.  Also, it would seem that, god forbid, it should need work, it would be easier to happen upon a mechanic that had actually worked on one rather than merely having heard of one.  What would be the downsides to an upgrade of this nature?

[lostagain]

We have a S60 in the hockey team bus. It is the most common engine on the highway  in N. America in trucks and buses. I have never had to work on it because it is so reliable and bullet proof. It is very powerfull and torquey between 1200 and 2000 RPM. The only thing I would miss about the 2 stroke is the sound. The S60 sounds awfull. It is in a MCI 102D3  with a 7 speed manual Eaton-Fuller, and I get 8 to 9 Cnd MPG. 7 to 8 US. If I ever wanted an other bus conversion, I'd be looking for a S60.

JC

[DaveG]

Downsides? What downsides? If the bus was originally equipped with a 60, or a conversion from an earlier two stroke was done properly, there is nothing but good. Reliability, servicability, quieter operation, potential for better fuel mileage (there is nothing on the market that has a fuel consumption curve lower than .300 as some 60s do) and long life/durability.

[luvrbus]

Lin, it is all about the gearing with the 60s they are design to between 1200 and 1400 rpm at highway speeds.Run the 60s at 1800 to 2000 rpm there is not much difference in the fuel mileage than a 2 stroke and it becomes a short lived engine.I seen them wore out at 300,000 miles and the EGR equipped 60s are 5 to 6 MPG engines.If the bus came equipped with right gearing they will give you good mileage and service.I have 8v92 and never saw a 60s that would double my mileage      good luck

[BG6]

What would be the downsides to an upgrade of this nature?

The only downgrade is that you can't claim the status of having a DD 2-stroke.

[TomC]

Downside is that it is electronically controlled-any part of the system go haywire, and you're calling a tow truck.  The upside is that it is electronically controlled-this gives you close to double the fuel mileage and pulling power of a standard 8V-71.  As mentioned before, most anyone can work on the Series 60 whereas the 2 strokers mechanics are getting few and far between. This is one of the big reasons I'm doing my truck conversion with the mechanically controlled Caterpillar 400hp 3406B model-once again-an engine that most any mechanic (including me) can work on.  Good Luck, TomC

[belfert]

How many semi tractors and coach buses go down due to electronics problems?  I think the electronics issues are overblown only because they can't be worked on by the average busnut if it is an electronics failure.

[TomC]

The electronics are such an issue, we automatically include one year of warranty towing service with every new truck we sell.  Course, new trucks will have more glitches then older vehicles.  Usually, if the vehicle is at least 1 year old, the electronics will just keep working, unless of failure, or corroded fitting. Good Luck, TomC

[Lin]

Tom,
    It seems to me that your solution, common engine plus it being mechanical, is about as safe as you can get. 

I like not having electronics, but it is not so much of an aversion that I would make it a deal breaker, especially considering what seems to be a mighty upgrade.  I have made them an offer that they will consider low, but is about as much as I want to do considering the ability of these machines to devour resources.  If they agree, which is not likely, I will get it inspected before continuing.  Thanks

[blue_goose]

I would think everyone here on the net drives a car with an electronic engine.  Don't know of a lot of people that have been down because of the electronics in there engine or transmission. 
I drive for a large RV dealer here in Florida.  All of the coaches that I drive have electronic engines.  In the past 4 years I have only been broke down one time because of engine problems.  That was on a class C with a gas engine.  The crankshaft pulse sender went bad and had to be replaced.  There are lots of things that can go bad, but of the thousands of trucks and cars on the road, how meny do you see down because of a electronic engine problem. 
Ask your friend that drives a truck if they would like to go back to the 2 cycle engine. 
Jack

[TomC]

The new Detroit DD13, 15 and 16 have engine computers that have as much power as a lap top now!  I wish I could afford the new engine, it is quiet, responsive and gets even better mileage then the Series 60 (EGR equipped).  We have reports of one trucker with the new Freightliner Cascadia running the 455hp DD15 and 13spd, with progressive shifting and 62mph top speed programmed in running between Salt Lake City and Phoenix (not a flat route) getting in his first 150,000 miles an average of 7.6 mpg pulling close to 80,000lb on every load.  That's like a pickup truck getting over 100mpg-pretty fuel efficient.  Next year with the urea injection, Detroit will pull back the EGR on the engine to the point that the passive regeneration on the particulate filter will go from being programmed at every 320 miles to every 3,000 miles. Shows you how much EGR dirties up everything. I'm estimating we'll see 80,000lb trucks getting over 8mpg that are driven carefully next year.  Good Luck, TomC

[TomC]

Just found out yesterday at a sales meeting with Detroit Diesel in attendance that the programmed regeneration is at 2500 miles, not 3000 miles as previously stated.  We are all wondering how International is going to do their engines with enhanced EGR, when MAN that makes the Maxxforce 11 and 13 liter engines is not going to use enhanced EGR themselves but going to SCR (selected catalyst redution) using DEF (Diesel exhaust fluid [Urea]).  It's amazing how some manufacturers don't see the light, but march forward with their own ideas-even though they know it won't work (think Caterpillar also).  Good Luck, TomC

[DaveG]

As far as truckers go, I don't care to drive a two-stroke anymore in an over the road application! The 60s are damn fine engines, mine have gone over a million miles with not much more that oil changes and maybe a waterpump. In all my years trucking these are the best engines ever. The Cat C12 comes in a close second and they are really very different.

Regarding fuel mileage increases, I can tell you that mpg has gone up and down over the years with engine designs. The non EGR 60 is still the best ever for fuel mileage, but lately everytime the engine manufacturers do something to help fight emissions, it seems that the mileage goes down, so it will be interesting to see if they can get it back up.

[TomC]

With Urea exhaust fluid injection, and the manufacturers backing off on the EGR, we're going to see trucks getting in the 8's as far as fuel mileage (about what pre '98 series 60's got).
I'm going to re engine my truck in 2014 with a 2010 engine and be done with it.  Will either use a Detroit DD13 (up to 525hp and 1750lb/ft), Cummins ISL (up to 435hp and 1350lb/ft), or the new Cummins ISX11.9 that will be available for RV (up to 500hp and 1625lb/ft).  Good Luck, TomC