Love my Bus but...

[belfert]

Ace,

Get a DL3!!! You will have to raise the roof, and upgrade some things, but it is a awesome bus. That is the first forty five footer, and the last non computerized coach (well not quite so computerized). I think that you would love it, like we love ours (okay, other than a little "leaning" problem right now )

You sure a DL3 isn't computerized?  Most DL3s had the Series 60 and a lot of them had the B500 tranny.  Those are both fully computerized.

[Blacksheep]

Kyle that offer is REAL tempting, believe me!

BK, talked to Said but not much help since he was in Baltimore and couldn't think. He said for me to call him back in 3 days and he might come out and have a look. Says he doesn't work on too many older coaches, just newer ones!
Oh well... That made me feel soo much better!

Ace

[Sojourner]

Ace...being you have a coach that is far better built with all Stain-Less Steel constructed, which is the Today state of art coach. The problem you're having is only temporary. Many of the bus nuts has problems with old non electronic ECM that either give up or patiently search out the trouble and it fix with new knowledge in their mind.
The bottom-line is don't give up or you will regret later.

You have Said (thank to BK) and to call him later. That is a good sign! In the mean time, I would suggest if not already done so, is to install an 80+# pressure gage between last filter to cylinder head. This way it is there for Said to diagnoses more quickly with his ECM experiences. I am not a DDEC man, so I don't know if it already can tell you the fuel pressure as it is.

And everyone including me wants to see your wonderful H-40 running so you and Susan can move on to journey the road.

BTW...who knows when but soon that all vehicles will be requiring meeting the "Green" standard. Meaning it will require to be updated with the recommend ECM unit. I am not for it in traveling through the open country but in large cities, it a must to control the smog.

BK, talked to Said but not much help since he was in Baltimore and couldn't think. He said for me to call him back in 3 days and he might come out and have a look. Says he doesn't work on too many older coaches, just newer ones!
Oh well... That made me feel soo much better!
Ace

Hang in there...ACE!

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald

[VanTare]

ACE I spoke with the fellows in my shop and Stewart & Stevenson about your ordeal and all say you have a fuel pickup problem. You do not have much trouble with the DDEC only senors every so often or welding with out disconnecting the batteries is about it.I have a Volvo D-13 engine in my Prevost and it is a problem most of the time. hope this helps you in someway     


David

[Blacksheep]

Ahh what a day it's been, mostly bad weather! Just enough to get you in a bad mood! Started out with a 3 mile walk and did some thinking (again) and was determined that this needed to be fixed!
Got home and decided that a fuel pressure gauge should be installed. The brass plug was not coming out so I thought I'll just buy a whole new filter housing and swap the lines. I ran to Tampa to the DD dealer and bought the filter housing. The rains came like buckets! Waited and waited and finally there was a break. With line wrenches in hand, I attempted to remove the first line. When I saw that it was twisting the tube rather than loosening, I stopped. What I didn't need was a broken or leaky fuel line to add to my troubles so I trace that line into darkness on top of the engine where I literally could not see. Only way to find out where it went was to loosen the ECM and move it to one side. After that was done, I could barely see where the line went and without removing the coolant, cross over pipe, hose's and a few other items, it too was not accessible! I stopped and just looked and looked and looked some more. What I was able to finally see was what use to be a pretty oil free motor that was COVERED in thick black dirty cruddy oil on the top and down the drivers side. Yes I knew I had a small leak, maybe from the blower but evidently it has become much worse.
I know this is a long shot but could the leak from either the blower or maybe the turbo allow the engine to NOT perform as it should. Is this a sign that the engine is sucking too much air? Would or could a leak such as this allow the engine to run while hot but not run when cooled down or vice versa? The reason I ask is that it ran so good on the way home and wasn't until after it sat in the drive way a day or so that it wouldn't run or runs REALLY low.
Like I said, it's just a long shot Wild A-- guess!

Thanks...
Ace

[JohnEd]

Ace,

I think you should go ahead and repair the leaking fuel line.  That will give you an opportunity to think thru the "no run" problem.  You will have to do it anyway and it is a constructive use of your time...nothing wasted.

Frozen fittings(as in locked up):  A friend introduced me to "Cold Shot".  It is a can of nitrogen or something that is dangerously cold when shot out  of the can.  It causes metals to shrink a lot.  Carefully squirt the little stream on the male fitting alone and it might come out easily.  Use to little and the part won't shrink enuf.  Use to much and you freeze both parts and there is "no gain".  You want one pert to shrink away from the other and loosen the bond.  I tried this on gasoline fuel fittings and it really worked, and surprisingly well, and quickly.

While there was fuel pressure the fitting leaked, as I understand you.  After sitting, the same leak might ingest air and block you fuel.  And that would be after your filters....the place where you correct for a lost prime.  Anyway, you have to fix it before you move on in the troubleshooting.

If we are playing clue and it is my turn, I would say you have two problems that are not directly related.....fuel and electrics.

Hope this works out quickly for you,

John

[Lin]

Is the oil you are talking about motor oil or caked diesel?  If it was leaking diesel when under pressure, it could be sucking air now.  If you are lucky, you may have your miracle discovery.  The great bonus is that it would have nothing to do with electronics.

[Blacksheep]

Oh boy... John YES you must have mis understood me because I don't ever recall stating I had a leaky fuel line so as of now, that is NOT the problem. IF i were to continue to TRY and remove the fitting on the fuel line that is attached to the fuel filter housing, then YES, it WILL break but as of now it has started to twist the tubin!, IT IS NOT broke YET, and NOT leaking YET!

Lin, from what I can tell, it looks like motor oil that has either leaked or blown out from somewhere for a little while now. I really don't think it's diesel fuel that is caked on the engine. I do think it's motor oil! I just can't see exactly where it would be coming from sice everything on the upper end and on the filter side (drivers side) is covered, yet everything on starter side (passenger side) is dry!

Ace

[Chopper Scott]

You can always drill out the frozen plug. If it is brass it will drill fairly easy. I have to remove bolts and plugs from aluminum housing on occasion and use the torch and heat the housing quickly and out she comes. You may also look at the fitting and find where it should swivel and apply some heat to get it to break free. Best of luck.

[Sojourner]

Ace...I wish I could be there to help diagnose your H-40 "idle only" problem...nearly 500 mi to Lakeland. These are my kind of project that I love to pin point and learn the whys. All my life, I work on whatever till it fixed. Anyone who been with me knows.

I will be interested of what your fuel pressure is.

Can you or anyone knowledgeable of DDEC equips system, does it has an electric fuel pump in the fuel tank?

And if so...does it still has a fuel pump on engine?

Keep hanging there!

Sojourn for Christ, Gerald

[luvrbus]

Ace, to answer your question about to much air the answer is no DDEC 2 strokes and the MUI  are the same engine very little difference between the 2 your oil leak is probably coming from the 1/4 inch oil tube for the blower which has rubber seals on each end.fwiw if you are not getting a lot of black smoke when it is running at 300 rpm the air is not the problem. good luck I know these things can be PITA it's sad that all the engine guys have left this board. have you checked the yahoo 2 strokes board for answers some of those guys are good

[edroelle]

Ace,

Here is another piece of information as a shotgun approach to your problem - this is just an idea.

When you talked about an oil leak, this came to mind.  I have heard of a loss of power  due to a clogged intercooler, caused by an oil leak.   Oil reduced the air flow at the intercooler, between the turbo to the engine.  Clean exhaust says this is not likely the problem, but I do not know how the ECM reacts for fuel if air to the engine is limited.

If it is possible, your job of diagnosing the problem would be easier if you could eliminate fuel, air, electrical, or exhaust as the problem.  The problem is not typical or someone would have identified it by now.  A systematic approach may help.  Others may  prioritize differently. 

Eliminate fuel as a problem
Eliminate air/exhaust

[edroelle]

Wrong key,  too early.   To continue my post -

A systematic approach may help.  Others may  prioritize and approach differently.   I invite others to brainstorm/contribute.   Here is a start.

Eliminate fuel as a problem
     Feed fuel pump (after primary filter) with $20 garden sprayer and $5 in brass fittings (this eliminates most fuel lines, weak fuel pump, air in lines, ...)

Eliminate air/exhaust system
      Is exhaust volume sufficient?
      What other easy checks?

Focus on Electrical
      Run additional temporary wires like ground wires to engine, Ecm, other
      Make sure batteries are 12.5 volts when cranking and running.

Hire a mechanic/electrician to come to your place, or lastly, tow to a Detroit Diesel dealer.

Ed Roelle

[Sammy]

Ace, it still is kind of hard to fathom how a charging issue became a "won't run" issue.
Gerald, the engine in Ace's coach uses a mechanically driven fuel pump - like a non-DDEC 2 stroke.The blower drives the fuel pump.

Ace, did you check the turbo? With engine shut off remove air intake hose and see if turbo spins free and there's no oil laying in there.
If blower shaft went bad engine won't run - usually.Blower shaft connects gear train to blower coupling, turning blower to force air into engine. This now allows blower to drive fuel pump.See if you have a mechanical tach drive on your blower - curbside, at rear of blower.
Should have a round knurled cap on it - if you have one. 6V92 with DDEC2 that I worked on a few weeks ago had one.IF you do have one, remove cap, crank engine and watch tach drive - it should turn while cranking. This will confirm blower shaft is good.
Ed's previous post is right on the money. Don't give up pack it in, etc.

[Blacksheep]

Ok Guys are you ready? Have you been waiting for this?





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Nothing much to report other than we did do a little more diagnosing today. I installed a pressure gauge at the secondary fuel filter. At first attempt to start the engine, it tried but wouldn't. I tried again, and after a 3rd time, it started. Smoked a little bit but ran right on up to 600 rpm at idle but still no acceleration. While it was running at 600 rpm I checked the gauge and it was holding a steady 40 lbs. As I tried to accelerate, I had Susan look at the gauge and it dropped to 35 lbs but went right back to 40 lbs when I let off the pedal.

So this tells us a couple of things. One, the fuel pressure is where it needs to be. Two, the blower is fine, and three, the fuel pump is good since it runs with the blower.

So, looks like we might look deeper into the electronics. I know you guys can't hear it run as I can but to me, it sounds like the jakes are on. Has sort of a deep flat sound. Could it be possible that they could be activated and stuck somehow since they are electronic and this all started when I applied good voltage? Bu the way, the jakes have never worked to my knowledge since we bought the bus! Again, this is just another WA guess!

Thanks
Ace