California Emissions and 6v92/8v92 PM retrofit???

CaliXbus · December 12, 2008, 01:13:42 AM

As many of your probably already know, the california air resource board made its final ruling and set forth the timeline for retrofiting all heavy duty on road trucks and buses today. See article and info here..http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onrdiesel/documents.htm

My question is: what are the options for bringing my 6v92's (4) and 8v92's (2) up to speed by 2011 without breaking the bank?

grantgoold · December 12, 2008, 07:32:15 AM

I looked to see if there were exemptions for private RV buses and couldn't find any mention. Sounds like I should apply for a Grant and get it paid for

If someone comes upon the exemptions for private buses please post for the rest of us folks that live in Cali. With the current projected budget deficit of $40 billion how do they plan on enforcing these regs on the those of us who do not pull into weigh stations.....

If I get my Grant, what retrofit would be the best bang for the buck? Play along please!

Thanks

Grant

junkman42 · December 12, 2008, 07:42:59 AM

Grant, because I asssume that the cool aid seems to find a way to get out of CA I had a look at the requirements. I couldn't decide whether to read in english, spanish, or punjabi! Can I assume someone is joking. What is in the water out there. Build a aux fuel tank and run on pure corn oil when going for a emmision test. John

Songman · December 12, 2008, 07:43:27 AM

What vehicles would be subject to this regulation?
The proposed regulation would apply to diesel-fueled vehicles with a manufacturer's gross vehicle weight rating greater than 14,000 pounds and to diesel shuttle buses of any weight class that operate in California. This regulation would apply regardless of where the vehicle is registered. Federally owned fleets and privately and publicly owned school buses would also be subject to the regulation. On the other hand, the following diesel vehicles would not be subject to the regulation: motor homes for non-commercial private use, military tactical vehicles, and emergency vehicles.

Don and I deal with this everyday. We have a system to bring 71 and 92s into Tier 2 compliance for off-road, portable, marine, and stationary equipment. We didn't worry about on-road because there are just not enough of them in fleet on-road operation anymore. And the requirements do not apply to private buses so it is not a big deal. But if any of you have equipment that you need to get in compliance, give us a call. We can definitely help you. And all of the CA grants like Carl Moyer are available for our system as well.

TomC · December 12, 2008, 08:13:02 AM

Currently, Calif does not test motorhome registered vehicles for emissions. My bus conversion is still registered as a bus and has never been required to have an emission test. CARB is very understaffed with personal to enforce the laws. I spoke to the head of enforcement in Sacramento and they don't even know what a particulate trap looks like! With those with bus conversions in California, I wouldn't get to excited about emission problems in the near future. The biggest thing to keep your bus from doing is belching out black smoke that draws attention to you (and that is completely in your control with your foot on the gas pedal. I know if I see any black smoke, just pull up about an inch on the gas pedal and it usually goes away).
From what I've read, motorhomes won't be enforced till way out around 2020. Small fleets of commercial buses can get extensions year after year.
If you have commercial buses running, once again (and I can't emphasize this enough) make sure your engines are in tune and don't produce black smoke! CARB has phone numbers for public watch dogs to complain about smoke producing vehicles. I know-I've had a couple of letters myself with my Mercedes-Benz 300D turbodiesel-since it is turned up a bit without the throttle delay on it anymore.
On my bus, when I first had it turbocharged, it didn't have a fuel modulator, so on initial takeoff, belched out a cloud of very black smoke-which I know wouldn't work for long. I had Don install the fuel modulator, and now only produces a small amount of black smoke on first takeoff that quickly disappears once the turbo comes up to speed. In altitude, driving down the road or pulling a hill, I have no visible smoke coming out of my exhaust stack.
As to your question on a particulate trap for your 6V/8V-92TA-they are available. But, they are also quite large-don't know where you could mount it on a bus, except up high on the outside-which would look wonderful. The cost would be in the $15-25,000 range and you'd have to empty it often. If it comes to that, an engine replace would be a better way to go. When it gets to that point with my truck conversion, that's what I'm going to do-probably replace the Caterpillar 3406B with a Cummins ISL 425hp. Good Luck, TomC

RJ · December 12, 2008, 08:39:50 AM

A quick phone call this morning to the ARB got me thru to a very nice and helpful lady named Jackie, who directed me to this link:

http://www.arb.ca.gov/regact/2008/truckbus08/appa.pdf

Now, scroll to page A-1. Note Section 2025(c) is Exemptions. Scroll down to 2025(c)(11) - Bingo! Motor homes are exempt.

Continue scrolling to page A-10, and Section2025(d)(45) - gives the definition, for this section, of what a motor home is.

As of today (12/12/08), ARB is voting on these regs, so the public comment period is over. However, it looks like ARB actually used some common sense when it came to motor homes - and Miss Jackie herself said that they realized that diesel motor homes don't operate enough miles (on average) to have any significant impact on air quality. They also recognized historic vehicles, too, for that matter.

She told me what this is really aimed at is commercial operations that are using diesel equipment on a daily basis, both on- and off-road.

So don't panic!

FWIW & HTH. . .

Songman · December 12, 2008, 09:56:50 AM

Particulate traps are killing engines all over the country. They are approved by the gov't because they don't care about the effects on the engine or the user's pocketbook. That is why CCTS is finally getting some attention. It is all an internal rebuild and doesn't require any of that expensive after-treatment stuff.

belfert · December 12, 2008, 10:44:00 AM

Are these engines that are being killed by particulate traps 2007 engines or retrofits? I would think I would have heard at least something about 2007 enignes being killed by particulate traps. The biggest complaints I have seen are low MPG from some of the redesigned 2007 engines.

Songman · December 12, 2008, 11:20:01 AM

Retrofits. But you won't hear about it through official channels. That would be like trying to get the truth out of politicians. The biggest example that we know of is from the railroad here in CA. They tried traps before they came to us and only got a few weeks into their use before they started killing the engines. That is when they came to us.

I don't know anything about new engines.

Nusa · December 12, 2008, 04:33:08 PM

QuoteSchool buses manufactured prior to April 1, 1977, will be required to be removed from service by January 1, 2012.

Sounds like the remaining fleet of Crowns still being used by California schools will finally get retired.

HB of CJ · December 12, 2008, 05:34:59 PM

Which, like Nusa just alluded to...now may be the time for me to start shopping for that mid-80's Crown Super Coach soon-to-be-ex-schoolie school bus and maybe soon to be that Ultimate Drivers Motorhome Bus Conversion. He he he. HB of CJ

belfert · December 12, 2008, 06:28:28 PM

How many 1977 school buses are still hauling kids in California? 30 years seems like a long time for a school bus, but California doesn't have the bus killing salt we have.

I am seeing lots of new school buses locally. I doubt they last more 10 years or so. In some states the law is that buses cannot be over 10 years old. I have read that some school districts with the 10 year rule are going with gas engines as they don't believe they need the longevity of a diesel when the bus only has a 10 year life.

Songman · December 12, 2008, 06:34:28 PM

This is not an uncommon site around Southern California.

quantum500 · December 12, 2008, 08:28:32 PM

Quote from: Songman on December 12, 2008, 09:56:50 AM
Particulate traps are killing engines all over the country. They are approved by the gov't because they don't care about the effects on the engine or the user's pocketbook. That is why CCTS is finally getting some attention. It is all an internal rebuild and doesn't require any of that expensive after-treatment stuff.

What are the technical aspects of the rebuild. I've read up on a shop in New Orleans that rebuilds boat motors into complete monsters with a great warranty. 1000hp 8v92 or a 2500hp 16v92 with a unlimited year warranty and they pass emissions.

Songman · December 13, 2008, 08:19:29 AM

The CCTS kits are completely independent of HP. The kit consists of special cams, pistons, and liners. You can have as much or as little HP as you want... and as you can keep cool! Boats have it easy with that unlimited source of cool sea water!

For the actual tech stuff of how the kit works go to http://www.cctskit.com/tech.html. Feel free to call anytime if you have more questions.

I would be interested in hearing more about this place in New Orleans if you have the info. They must be doing some sort of after-treatment to make it pass emissions. CCTS is the only technology available that can do it in the actual engine and they have been patented since the mid-90s. We were just down at the International Workboat show in New Orleans and people were going nuts for the kit!