The rear main seal on my 11.1 Series 60 has started to leak really bad. C&J Bus Repair said the engine might have to come out to fix it. The 11.1 Series 60 I have is a total dog. The last time I was at the local Detroit Diesel dealer to look at an issue they said my engine seems to be quite low on power. The engine was run for some time before I bought it with a bad radiator and a half plugged air intake. I fixed the air intake and installed a new radiator core, but the damage was likely done.
Is this the right opportunity to put in a pre-EGR 12.7 Series 60 engine instead? It is going to cost a few thousand dollars to pull the engine and put it back in. (No engine cradle on a Dina.) I am somewhat leery of used engines as the pre-EGR engines are around 25 years old now. By now, the last owner of a 25 year old Series 60 was probably keeping the engine alive with hopes and dreams, and was praying it would pass the next DOT inspection.
BTW, what can I use to remove the heavy coating of oil on the trailer I was towing when it started leaking bad? I have a nice cold water pressure washer, but I don't believe the chemical injector works. The tongue, safety chains, and light cable have a lot of oil on them. (Yes, I checked oil level in bus several times and it was fine.)
Finding a low mileage 12.7 would be an option and the first step. Finding a shop to do the retro fit would be the second step and probably the most exspensive of the two shy of rebuilding your current engine. Cheapest way out is to find a low mileage 11 liter for a direct swap out and keep on trucking. IMHO.
BEST OF LUCK!
The 11.1 and the 12.7 are the same in size ,the 12.7 weighs about 150 lbs more ,he can probably by a MCI with the series 60 and B500 for 8 to 10 grand ,he has a generation 1 WT B500 it is probably on the last leg .I know nothing about it but BK had a 12.7 for sale
I don't want to buy someone else's problem. My engine works fine except for the rear main seal leak, and being a dog. I estimate the bus has about 400,000 miles on it. I think I have a WTEC II, but not sure. I've lived with it being a dog for years, but the need to pull the engine regardless has me thinking about just replacing the engine. I likely would not replace the engine if it didn't need to come out anyhow.
It doesn't make sense to go back with another 11.1, unless another 11.1 performs better than mine. As Clifford stated the 11.1 and 12.7 are physically the same size externally. A 12.7 will bolt right in with no changes. Dina switched to the 12.7 in 1996 or 1997. I think the switch was because the 11.1 was discontinued. Like I said, my main concern is getting someone else's problem. A truck 12.7 could be converted to a bus engine by switching the oil pan, and maybe the oil pickup.
At this point, there is probably a 75% chance I will just go with getting the rear main seal replaced due to cost. I could be $10,000 in on an engine swap easily versus $2,000 to $3,000 on a fix for my engine.
One thing that made me unhappy is JD Dickinson told me he scrapped a pretty nice Dina recently. He forgot I have a Dina. I don't know about the drivetrain, but I just wanted all of the unique hard to find parts on a Dina.
I talked to JD Dickinson about some Series 60 engines from buses that he has for sale. A number of them on his website are sold, but he has some not listed. He has a 1996 Prevost with a Series 60 engine that is an American Fleet rebuild with 20k on it. $7,500 for the engine, but he said if C&J Bus Repair did the install to plan on $20,000 to be safe (Total with engine, labor, and taxes), and it could be less. He would replace all rubber parts, fuel lines, and such while the engine is out. That is why the cost goes from $3,000 to R&R my engine to replace the seal to $12,500 in labor and parts to put in a different engine. If C&J Bus Repair does the work they have to give some sort of warranty which is why they replace everything that could fail.
I talked to Van about doing such a project myself and he said plan on year if you have a job. He highly recommended paying the $20k if I decided to buy that engine. I'm still going to be over $10,000 because I will want to replace at least some of the hoses and other parts too.
I need to verify it is the rear main seal yet. I remembered there are oil pressure senders and other things directly above the bell housing. Maybe one of those sprung a leak. That would be an easy fix. I am going to pull the inside engine cover this evening to look at that.
Can you get some of your fellow "Rocketeers" to kick in some $$ to help offset the exspenses? Just a thought.
Good talking to ya!
When I did the rear main on my 11.1 (a few years before I did the 12.7 swap) 2 guys just dropped the trans out, r&r'd the rear main seal, and had it all back together and done in about 4 hours time. Of course I don't know how different your Dina is compared to a DL3.
I don't know anything about a Dina but it is hard to believe on a newer bus you cannot pull the transmission without pulling the engine to replace a seal that would suck it did on the MCI 5, JD would know though he is not one to jerk you around for a few extra dollars. I would not be afraid of buying the series 60 (P) premium used engine with 5 to 600,000 miles on it they have a lot of life left, the Std model series 60 would be a little iffy for me
JD wasn't sure if the engine has to come out because my Dina is one of the only ones he was has worked on. He gave a price to pull the engine and it could be less.
Quote from: luvrbus on September 26, 2024, 03:11:31 AM
I would not be afraid of buying the series 60 (P) premium used engine with 5 to 600,000 miles on it they have a lot of life left, the Std model series 60 would be a little iffy for me
What is a premium versus std Series 60 engine? I have never heard of that. My bus showed around 300,000 miles when I bought it although the speedometer was not working right. The wear on the chassis seemed consistent with 300,000 miles. The ECM only showed like 1,000 miles when I bought the bus. I believe I have somewhere in the 400,000 mile range on the engine. I sort of hate to put in an engine with 500,000 to 600,000 miles although I probably won't put more than another 100,000 miles on my bus in my lifetime.
Series 60 12.7 has had 3 grades of engines since they were inducted the premium has better and longer lasting components ,I have saw the series 60 (P) with a million 800 thousand miles on it with very few repairs the (Std) last around 800 to a million miles,the high hp marine series 60 is a upgrade from the (P) ,the engine will have a P or a S in the serial number .Kubota does also with their engines too, they stopped it a few years on the generator engines
I've looked at the model numbers of 20 to 30 Series 60 12.7 engines and they are all standard. I think it would be hard to find a premium engine.
Quote from: belfert on September 26, 2024, 10:42:10 AM
I've looked at the model numbers of 20 to 30 Series 60 12.7 engines and they are all standard. I think it would be hard to find a premium engine.
There is a lot of the (P) around all the Peter Pan MCI buses had the (P) series 60 ,the Std was found a lot in fleet trucks like Swift,so there are probably more around
Peter Pan's fleet is tiny when compared to all of the truck Series 60 engines that were sold. I suspect I would be searching for months to find a premium engine out of a bus. I am certain a premium engine would better, but at what cost if I can't use my bus for 18 months while trying to source and install one?
I am sure you contact a truck salvage yard they will have dozens of the P ,non EGR may be a little harder to find
Quote from: luvrbus on September 26, 2024, 06:19:24 PM
I am sure you contact a truck salvage yard they will have dozens of the P ,non EGR may be a little harder to find
Watch out for rotation, some trucks are backwards from buses.
If your mind is made up so be it. Have you considered a CUMMINS for a repower? I think they offered that engine as optional equipment back then so it would likely snap into place.
Quote from: CrabbyMilton on September 27, 2024, 04:18:34 AM
If your mind is made up so be it. Have you considered a CUMMINS for a repower? I think they offered that engine as optional equipment back then so it would likely snap into place.
I don't believe the Dina Viaggo ever had a Cummins engine option, at least not the model sold in the USA. The MCI F3500 (A Dina with MCI nameplate) had a Cummins, but a smaller Cummins.
It is reasonably straight forward to stick a 12.7 Series 60 in there as the block is the same size externally and everything is in the same place. Switching to a Cummins would make this into a very expensive multi-year project as the the coach would need to be rewired, motor mounts fabricated, new exhaust and intake made, and probably a new drive shaft too.
I looked closer at the oil leak issue yesterday evening. It appears it may not be the rear main seal leaking. It looks like Dina installed a braided hose where the the oil pressure sender attaches so they could run up to a manifold to install multiple oil pressure senders. That braided hose may be leaking, but I need to take a closer look. It would be much easier to replace a hose versus the rear main seal.
One of my friends on my trip is a heavy duty diesel mechanic. He looked at things and thought the rear main seal leak may have gotten a lot worse.
Quote from: belfert on September 27, 2024, 07:17:55 AM
I don't believe the Dina Viaggo ever had a Cummins engine option, at least not the model sold in the USA. The MCI F3500 (A Dina with MCI nameplate) had a Cummins, but a smaller Cummins.
It is reasonably straight forward to stick a 12.7 Series 60 in there as the block is the same size externally and everything is in the same place. Switching to a Cummins would make this into a very expensive multi-year project as the the coach would need to be rewired, motor mounts fabricated, new exhaust and intake made, and probably a new drive shaft too.
You're probably right but I have a DINA brochure deep in a box somewhere that I would need a day to dig out. Never mind me I'm just the resident CUMMINS stockholder here. :)
Yes it makes logical sense to keep the same engine so it just bolts in. DETROIT did the right thing by designing the S60 to fit regardless of size.
Try these guys. They have several low mile engines from New Jersey transit busses. I bought a 12.7 with 26k on a complete overhaul for 6500 about 5 or 6 years ago. That's not even fully broken in yet.
http://fowlersautowrecking.com/
Quote from: CrabbyMilton on September 27, 2024, 07:30:27 AM
You're probably right but I have a DINA brochure deep in a box somewhere that I would need a day to dig out. Never mind me I'm just the resident CUMMINS stockholder here. :)
Yes it makes logical sense to keep the same engine so it just bolts in. DETROIT did the right thing by designing the S60 to fit regardless of size.
Even if there had been a Cummins option I wouldn't have any idea where to get all the pieces to install a Cummins in my bus. It would still be a much bigger project than another Series 60. I would need to do major electrical work to get it working. I don't have an issue with Cummins, but there is not enough advantage in my mind to go through the cost and labor to install one.
The wiring diagrams I have only show the Series 60, and no other engine option. The only option they show is for the Series 60 with I think the HT755 transmission before they switched to the B500.
Quote from: thomasinnv on September 27, 2024, 08:30:15 AM
Try these guys. They have several low mile engines from New Jersey transit busses. I bought a 12.7 with 26k on a complete overhaul for 6500 about 5 or 6 years ago. That's not even fully broken in yet.
http://fowlersautowrecking.com/
Right now, if I buy an engine the leading candidate is an American Fleet rebuild with 20K miles in a 1996 Prevost that is being parted out. JD Dickinson has it locally here in Minnesota. I just left a message asking if the $7,500 includes removal from the coach. I know that transit agencies like to waste money on things like engine rebuilds. They'll have engines rebuilt and put on the shelf even though they know that the buses with that engine type are being retired inside of a year.
I talked to Fowler's too. All of their Series 60 engines are still in buses. They are going to call me when they have some pulled out and tested.
Quote from: belfert on September 27, 2024, 11:30:13 AM
Even if there had been a Cummins option I wouldn't have any idea where to get all the pieces to install a Cummins in my bus. It would still be a much bigger project than another Series 60. I would need to do major electrical work to get it working. I don't have an issue with Cummins, but there is not enough advantage in my mind to go through the cost and labor to install one.
The wiring diagrams I have only show the Series 60, and no other engine option. The only option they show is for the Series 60 with I think the HT755 transmission before they switched to the B500.
Stick with series 60,I loved my ISX 15 Cummins but the Cummins service is lousy ,they charge $250.00 a hour for RV work and it takes 3 months to get a appointment and if is over 20 years old forget it.Cummins being the only option for diesel RV now they rape you lol and do not take a Onan QT like I had there for service it took 3 weeks for them just to look at it and other month to replace a sensor for 1100 bucks, my 2008 ISX used a fuel lift pump you can buy it almost anywhere for 300 bucks,$1000.00 labor and $2800.00 for the pump that was my last visit to Cummins
Quote from: luvrbus on September 27, 2024, 01:17:30 PM
Stick with series 60,I loved my ISX 15 Cummins but the Cummins service is lousy ,they charge $250.00 a hour for RV work and it takes 3 months to get a appointment and if is over 20 years old forget it.Cummins being the only option for diesel RV now they rape you lol and do not take a Onan QT like I had there for service it took 3 weeks for them just to look at it and other month to replace a sensor for 1100 bucks, my 2008 ISX used a fuel lift pump you can buy it almost anywhere for 300 bucks,$1000.00 labor and $2800.00 for the pump that was my last visit to Cummins
Interstate Companies is the local Detroit dealer. They operate both I-State truck and Interstate Power. I-State Truck was charging $169 to work on a motorhome and $129 to work on a truck over a decade ago. I imagine they are over $200 an hour now for motorhomes. I needed last minute brake work and it was the only place open evenings that JD at C&J Bus Repair knew about. (None of JD's guys wanted to work overtime that day.) It turned out they charged me the truck rate since my bus didn't need the floor covered.
If I need work on my Series 60 or Allison B500 like programming that only a Detroit dealer can do I normally go to Interstate Power instead of I-State Truck. Interstate Power mostly does work on engines and transmissions. The only issue is they are at least a 100 mile round trip for me. I am on the far northern end of the metro area and Interstate is at the far southern end of the metro area.
It turns out the leak was actually an oil hose right above the bell housing. DINA built their own little oil manifold in order to feed two oil pressure senders. One for rear and one for dash. They ran a one foot hose from a port on the engine to the manifold. The hose was leaking.
The hose was replaced the Monday after the bus got home from my trip. I drove the bus about 120 miles two weekends ago and no further evidence of an oil leak.
Brian, that's a great outcome. A lot nicer than an engine swap. Celebrating the good news with you. :D
Best Regards, Phil
Brian just an FYI, your trans can be pulled w/o the engine coming out. Back when were still in business another driver an I were on a 2 bus charter together I was in one of the Setra's an he was in the Dina. I took off at a light and notice he just sat there. As I reached for my phone it rang and Bill says "Boss this thing just revs up and won't go anywhere!"
I told him hang tight I'll be right back. I told the principal who was on my bus we got a problem, I need to go back and check on that other bus. So I whip thru an empty lot and went past him turned around, pulled up behind him with my flashers on. I jumped out opened the rear hatch, and curbside door and looked everything over as good as I could. I looked under it and made sure the drive shaft was still connected and had him shift to drive (he'd already put it in N while waiting on me) and the shift pad wouldn't work. I don't recall what the pad showed, but it would not do anything.
By this time the principle and other chaperones were standing near us on the sidewalk and I told them the bad news is, "The bad news is that bus ain't going nowhere w/o a tow truck, the worst news is we don't have another bus available and as far as I know no other bus company in the area has anything available because they've all been calling me for one today, but the good news is we are only a few mins away from the school. I can take my group back to the school, unload and come back for the rest!"
Of course I started getting the 1000 questions how, when, why yada yada yada. It was a trip to Six Flags Amusement Park near St. Louis and I told them I was sorry, but there was NO WAY I could get 2 bus loads up there today, but as soon as they could schedule it for a different day I would take them.
Well I didn't feel comfortable leaving them in the lane of traffic and I had a small chain in the tool compartment of my Setra, so I pulled in front of it and we pulled up to the empty lot I'd spun around in an I told Bill to let them know I'd be right back.
I took them to the school where as we were unloading I started getting bombarded with questions again. I told them let me go get the other kids and we'll talk when I get back. I raced back to the other bus we loaded the other kids on my bus and I told Bill wait here I'll be back soon.
I got back to the school and before I could get out the door I was getting 1000 questions, yelled at and even threatened but the principle, teachers and parents! I took the principle aside and explained we can't control break dons and as rare as they are they do happen.
The principle finally "sorta" understood, and agreed we'd talk about it when I got back to the office.
As I was getting back on the bus I was still getting yelled at by some parents!
Before I could even call the office and let my sister know what was going on she was getting calls threatening lawsuits and even got told by the principle herself "Well y'all should have a back up plan for when things like this happen!"
Anyway I got back to the bus and had Bill shut down the bus and come with me. I don't remember why but I told him to start it back up and we could hear the started spinning, but the engine wasn't turning over. I immediately thought the worst! I thought the crank had busted as I recently heard of someone else that had one bust. So I called my buddy that managed our local Detroit/Allison dealer and told him what was going on and I was going to have it towed to him. I told him I know y'all are probably covered up, but I really need to know what we're looking at as soon as you can. He assured me that he'd have it dropped in a bay and would check it out personally check it as soon as it was "off the hook."
Sure enough a couple hrs later he asked me are ya sitting down. Again I thought the worst and he told me "Well, yer in luck, it's only a broken flex plate. We'll have it it off and ready when the new one gets here in the morning, should have ya back on the road by lunch!"
Well like he said it was ready by noon. And it cost less to repair than the wrecker bill!
So I know the trans can come out w/o the engine.
;D BK ;D