Just sitting here remembering my youth when life was bustling when the 2 stroke Detroits were in their hay day and the skunky smell of their smoke and how Cat Cummins Mack all seam to have their own distinct exhaust smell, call me weird just takes me back to seemingly better days. How about you?
For me, I think the more distinctive difference between the engines was the sound. It was possible to easily identify the engines that way, and to detect common problems.
I certainly don't disagree but I still like to think that if things in the old days were so much better, then why don't they exist anymore? You can apply that to pretty much everything. Jet powered airliners vs. piston? Jet powered planes can fly higher and faster and are much quieter. Can't see a downside. Steam locomotives vs. diesel.
Steam has the nostalgic factor but not much else. Alternators vs. Dynamo's in vehicles. Not too much of a contest there.
Computers and social media are taking the personal touch out of the equation. Heck people in real close proximity use social media instead of a coffee or adult beverage visit/break. We love our antique two stroke turtle for bringing us back in time including the slowness rather than the hurry.
Well given the fact that there are so many horrible people out there, it's probably a good think personal contact isn't as necessary now. How time does go by though since I can't even remember hearing a 71 or 92 engine other than YOUTUBE.
Quote from: tr206 on July 02, 2021, 05:38:26 AM
Just sitting here remembering my youth when life was bustling when the 2 stroke Detroits were in their hay day and the skunky smell of their smoke and how Cat Cummins Mack all seam to have their own distinct exhaust smell, call me weird just takes me back to seemingly better days. How about you?
When I was an ardent train buff in my formative teenage years I always maintained that 2-stroke diesels' exhaust smelled different that four strokes'. My friends used to joke with me about that, but I could reliably say if a two-stroke Deltic locomotive had passed by recently instead of a four-stroke powered loco, and most of the time I was correct! I still have strong recollections of the unique smell of Deltics at London's Kings Cross station, very different (in my mind) to the smell of four-stroke Sulzer and English Electric powered locos. Why is this so? Surely diesel fuel being burnt should smell the same, regardless of how the Suck/Squeeze/Bang/Blow cycles are configured? Maybe I was instead smelling the accumulated oil residue in Deltics' exhausts - after prolonged idling they would blow out prodigious quantities of white smoke when they were throttled up, and this was supposedly the oil/fuel/whatever in their exhausts' being heated up and blown out.
Maybe it's time for a "Smell The Detroit Difference" bumper sticker for our buses, but CARB wouldn't like that.
John
Fuel has changed a lot since the 50's with additives and such. Exhaust smell has changed along with it. Maybe they should start using a blend with peanut oil instead of ethanol.
Crabby maybe you need to let us know where you live.
Ken Arnold, Pat McNeil and I go by our friend Jarra Smith's grave. Back up to it and blow 2stroke smoke all over it.
Next time we might have to make Pat wait until Ken and I are through. I hear he has gone over to the other side. a 4stroke.
uncle ned
I'm in Milwaukee, WI.
I remember MCTS's fleet of 150 1980 RTS's. All but 6 of them had the 8V-71 but 6 of them had the 6V-92 turbo. I was in disbelief when I heard one of those 92's Still don't know why they got those. But then in 1985 I heard a 4 cycle 6 cylinder and saw one of the RTS's and couldn't believe it. They took 2 of them and put in the CUMMINS L-10(new at the time) as an experiment for a few years. I made it a point to ride on one of them. Not nearly as smooth as the 71 and 92 but these newer ones have really come a long way in smoothness. The 2 buses used in the experiment had their 8V-71 engines returned to them after the test.
Iceni John gets it. I like the Smell the Detroit Difference idea. I says seemingly better times only because I was young and didn't have a care in the world. The times were definitely not easier. Grew up in a bustling small town in Wisconsin lots of milk trucks of coarse farmers then small towns had all you needed to live like a bus depot, lumber yard, a shoe shop, clothing store, drug store, train stop etc now most small towns are ghost towns and the small farms are gone the sense of neighborly community no longer exists your on your own kind of. So are these better days I would say yes in some way and definitely no. For some reason diesel smoke and coal smoke brings it all back love it.
I'm a new age junkie because I take my father in law to steam and diesel. He lives up the street and brings his golf cart down to sit behind my bus when I fire up the 6V92. He just likes to smell it and listen while I am airing up. He was 30 years in a 4105 but can't drive now. I have his FMCA #4106 on the bus since he still rides in it now and then. He got me hooked on the bus thing. We live in the N Ga mountains and I take him to nearby TN where there are 4 different steam trains to ride. Steam or diesel, and he is happy. He is 90 and trying to see if he can still do the bus stairs for one more road trip. Booked for Loudonville OH end of August for Flx parade.
Please say a little prayer for me that I can get him there.
didn't proof read my post. He had a 4106, and is FMCA life member 4125. Gary Hiemer
I have always liked the older CAT and Cummins engine working all-day @ 900rpm full throttle,my favorite is the EMD 710 train engine it sounds like it really running @900 rpm max lol 1 piston equals the cubic inches of a 8v71
Years ago, our families went to Disney World, Fla. They used all RTS busses. They had dd50 4 cylinder engines. Sounded like rotating bucket of rocks and weren't smooth when accelerating. Power wise, they were ok.
Quote from: chessie4905 on July 02, 2021, 06:23:14 PM
Years ago, our families went to Disney World, Fla. They used all RTS busses. They had dd50 4 cylinder engines. Sounded like rotating bucket of rocks and weren't smooth when accelerating. Power wise, they were ok.
There will never be diesel made that will idle as smooth as the 8v71 IMO ,the series 60 Detroit will shake the sheets off the bed @ 500 to 600 rpm
Cliff, stop using satin sheets! 😂
Quote from: luvrbus on July 02, 2021, 06:29:30 PM
There will never be diesel made that will idle as smooth as the 8v71 IMO ,the series 60 Detroit will shake the sheets off the bed @ 500 to 600 rpm
Not a problem with flannel sheets 😂😂😂
My 1st RV was a Bluebird Bird FC about a 65 model ,another owner told me joking a Blue Bird owner invented Velcro just to keep the sheets on the bed
The nostalgia live on, even without two strokes. You guys may hear the difference but I delight in hearing a truck with jakes full on. bla bla bla. Music to my ears. :)
Reading this thread confirms how little I know.
The old gasoline engines had their own sound too,I have a 534 Ford I start about 1 time a year just to hear it run
@windtrader said: "The nostalgia live on, even without two strokes"
Our two stroke is our nostalgia! 8)
Quote from: dtcerrato on July 03, 2021, 05:49:03 AM
@windtrader said: "The nostalgia live on, even without two strokes"
Our two stroke is our nostalgia! 8)
2 strokes live on but at a price,parts are through the roof a set of OEM piston kits $5100.00 for a 8v92 and 8 weeks delivery or longer, 2 new cams 3000 bucks
Quote from: luvrbus on July 03, 2021, 06:21:30 AM
2 strokes live on but at a price,parts are through the roof a set of OEM piston kits $5100.00 for a 8v92 and 8 weeks delivery or longer, 2 new cams 3000 bucks
Hear ya loud & clear, recent engine rebuild has less than 13,000 miles... :^
I believe that Gene has a supply of new 6/71 marine blocks.
uncle ned
Everyone has a favorite. My favorite thing is not having to put DEF in in my bus. I feel sorry for guys watching them have to move their vehicle after fueling so the DEF spout is accessible.
It seems if you have a 2 stroke in the bus, it sure seems like a wise money decision to grab a solid engine of a bus on the way to the salvage yard. just clean it up, and store it just in case. The situation is only going to get worse in finding parts, skills, and prices.
Quote from: windtrader on July 03, 2021, 05:25:04 PM
It seems if you have a 2 stroke in the bus, it sure seems like a wise money decision to grab a solid engine of a bus on the way to the salvage yard. just clean it up, and store it just in case. The situation is only going to get worse in finding parts, skills, and prices.
Pretty much true for every vehicle as it progresses from old to vintage to antique. Parts get more scarce and more expensive.
Our antique two stroke is progressing through life just like its owners and may some day just retire & become a tiny home but as long as there's an ounce of energy in the owners we will continue to travel it.
There is not much difference in the price of engines parts between the 2 strokes and newer 4 stroke engine you can spend 30 to 50k on either one for a rebuild, only difference the 4 strokes don't need it as often.We have been spoiled with 2 stroke parts prices lol i remember $2000.00 was a standard price for a in frame on a 8v71 with 8 hours labor and parts and would cost about $2200 if you rebuilt the blower , kiss those days goodbye
I remember my army days in the artillery. 8V71's in the howitzer's and 6V53's in the cargo carriers and command post track.
Nothing like the angry growl of the diesels in the morning LOL!
The best description I have heard about two cycle DETROIT's. A swarm of bees in a SPAM can.
Quote from: CrabbyMilton on July 04, 2021, 09:53:46 AM
The best description I have heard about two cycle DETROIT's. A swarm of bees in a SPAM can.
Not the best engine ever made but the 2 strokes ruled the world for 40 + years ,Cummins,Mack,Cat,and International all took shots at the Detroit and never succeeded knocking Detroit off the throne ,took the EPA to bring it down .No one has ever made a engine that could be used in so many applications with so many parts interchangeable they really were a engineering marvel in their day
Quote from: luvrbus on July 04, 2021, 10:25:12 AM
Not the best engine ever made but the 2 strokes ruled the world for 40 + years ,Cummins,Mack,Cat,and International all took shots at the Detroit and never succeeded knocking Detroit off the throne ,took the EPA to bring it down .No one has ever made a engine that could be used in so many applications with so many parts interchangeable they really were a engineering marvel in their day
This could be a great Epitaph for the 2 cycle Detroit when it finally truly dies, but so long as some of these engines are still singing, the end has not come just yet.
Quote from: luvrbus on July 04, 2021, 10:25:12 AM
No one has ever made a engine that could be used in so many applications with so many parts interchangeable they really were a engineering marvel in their day
That is so true, also why there are still around. :)
Quote from: Paso One on July 04, 2021, 12:35:13 PM
That is so true, also why there are still around. :)
Each year they get less and less down from 3-1/2 million to around 350,000 now world wide,MTU will drop support before long for the 2 cycles,the military and NATO were MTU's largest customer that's gone so is the DOC training for 2 cycles I was told by Davenport
Still LOTS of 2-strokes in use in the marine world.
Quote from: richard5933 on July 04, 2021, 04:51:04 PM
Still LOTS of 2-strokes in use in the marine world.
Not really along the coast Texas started 10 years ago giving grants to replace the 2 strokes in boats you may find them but not like it was in the past.I have contract with a cell carrier replacing all their 2 strokes along the coast ,it is sad you pull a good running 12v92 or 12v71 you drain the oil start the engine full throttle and let it run till it seizes and gives up and they haul it off for scrap. You are not allowed to even remove parts,I removed 4 sets of tall cast valve cover from a 12v71 and they made me throw those in the scrap,it was stupid LOL I ended up with those anyways the scrap co had a 453 on a crusher that needed a adjustment that took 10 minutes
Clifford, does a 12V92 heat up like a 8V92 or worse? Or does it run at a lower RPM for the same amount of power? tom...
There are still a few locomotives that have a 2 stroke. More and more 4 stroke and they too have a sound of their own. Any engine that powers a locomotive commands respect on sound alone regardless of engine type.
Quote from: lvmci7070 on July 04, 2021, 06:24:59 PM
Clifford, does a 12V92 heat up like a 8V92 or worse? Or does it run at a lower RPM for the same amount of power? tom...
On generators they run @1800 rpm under a load takes a monster cooling system the radiators are 22 cores some are 28 cores they 7-1/2 ft tall x 60 to 80 inches wide with a 58 to 72 dia fan to keep one at 195 F churning out 600 to 750 KW with a 16v92,good thing is they are only running in storm conditions.You would not like the fuel bill @ 36 to 42 gals a hour lol they hold a lot of 40w oil too
More than a few locomotives. Almost all EMD locomotives are 2 stroke. There are thousands out there yet.
Quote from: chessie4905 on July 06, 2021, 10:14:04 PM
More than a few locomotives. Almost all EMD locomotives are 2 stroke. There are thousands out there yet.
BNSF runs EMD 4 stroke engines I don't think they have any EMD 2 strokes running on the lines anylonger.It is a strange sight to see the EMD engines with a Caterpillar logo and yellow paint now ,I was told BNSF has 9000 train engines and they have almost all been converted over to the 4 stroke EMD engines
all I see on BNSF are GE's anymore. Warren Buffet also has GE stock. They used to have a lot of EMD.
GE sold their locomotive division several years ago. WABTEC is what's it's called now.
Buffet owned EMD he sold to CAT a few years ago,there is a rehab place in Boise Id that changes engines for Union Pacific and BNSF plus other lines you see a lot of the yellow painted EMD engines there now
We are in Gillette, Wy. for FMCA convention. There are a few hundred BNSF dead locomotives along route 51. Over a mile of them. Some rows 2 deep. I don't know if Berkshire Hathaway has GE stock anymore since the stock took a nosedive a couple of years ago.
I was told by a local that there are 550 units setting on the tracks east of town
Wayne
Quote from: chessie4905 on July 08, 2021, 07:23:04 PM
We are in Gillette, Wy. for FMCA convention. There are a few hundred BNSF dead locomotives along route 51. Over a mile of them. Some rows 2 deep. I don't know if Berkshire Hathaway has GE stock anymore since the stock took a nosedive a couple of years ago.
Those are used for hauling coal out of Wyoming .I have seen those parked there before then they move out with a mile long of coal cars,you should take a trip out to mines the 3 large ones if you want to see some big iron they have it there probably parked this time of the year though
We took the mine tour the last time we were in Gillette very impressive operation including loading the trains. I didn't see a tour offered this time or I would have taken it.
Wayne
Quote from: rusty on July 09, 2021, 09:02:52 AM
We took the mine tour the last time we were in Gillette very impressive operation including loading the trains. I didn't see a tour offered this time or I would have taken it.
Wayne
I was there one time when they were assembling 5 new CAT 300 ton trucks,cost 25 million for 5 trucks,those guys have some very big tools
BNSF is really busy further south in Ariz and NM. trains passing about every 20 minutes, parallel to I-40.
Quote from: chessie4905 on July 09, 2021, 03:05:09 PM
BNSF is really busy further south in Ariz and NM. trains passing about every 20 minutes, parallel to I-40.
Yep and they are a PITA from Flagg to Needles trying to sleep in RV parks along I 40
yeah, we were in rv park alongside I-40 outside Memphis.Trucks all night long. Noisy roof ac drowned out most of noise.
Quote from: chessie4905 on July 09, 2021, 06:06:25 PM
yeah, we were in rv park alongside I-40 outside Memphis.Trucks all night long. Noisy roof ac drowned out most of noise.
Amtrak runs that line too ,some times we leave the car in Flagstaff and catch the train in Needles back to Flagstaff a 4 hour trip leaving at midnight but the wife enjoys the train ride me I sleep
EMD (Caterpillar) are still making the 710 series of 2 stroke Diesels in 8, 12, 16, 20 cylinder for trains (outside California and mostly outside US). Tier 4 has been achieved for marine and stationary use.
Fairbanks Morse is still making the opposed piston 2 stroke that is mostly used in generating and pumping, as also with dual fuel using natural gas mainly.
Achates is working with Cummins for their 2 stroke opposed piston engines. Military are using this engine and will be seen in over the road trucks soon. These engines are very clean mainly because of their smog controls attached to the engine.
Course the biggest engines in the world are still 2 stroke engines. The new versions have extra long strokes (135") and only run at 82rpm. Good Luck, TomC
That's interesting since I thought that the opposed design for trucks and possibly buses was pretty much pushed back or cancelled altogether. Given the way things are moving toward BEV's, the 4 stroke diesel is fine the way it is so I can't imagine truck and bus builders engineering those in. Perhaps those work in locomotives and stationary applications but time and the market will tell.