Not up on the new batteries ,so will 1 or 2 Battle Born in a bank that don't take a charge they are reading 0 when he turns the inverter on they all go dead.Battle Born seems to think he has a bad battery in the bank any answers before we send these batteries back to RENO ,their 10 year warranty kinda sucks
He should have bought Lion Energy lithium batteries. ;D
If it reads 0, it's the BMS that is protecting it. Try giving it a voltage , so if it lights up.
Why is it a bad warranty? If they'll take it back and fix / replace, sounds like that's all they can do.
Quote from: neoneddy on April 08, 2021, 11:59:04 AM
If it reads 0, it's the BMS that is protecting it. Try giving it a voltage , so if it lights up.
Why is it a bad warranty? If they'll take it back and fix / replace, sounds like that's all they can do.
LOL 200 bucks for frieght back to Reno if they decide it is something you did caused the problem they do the repair for $150.00 per hour plus parts ,he has photos of his install just incase that comes into play ,8000 bucks in batteries that don't work he is a little pissed off right now
Ok, that's more context.
Honestly, battle borne is great for 1 or 2 batteries in a stock RV battery tray. For anything bigger buy the 280 AH lishen cells from alibaba and a BMS. I did the math, $500 or so gets you 280 AH @ 12v . Buy a few extra cells for hot skates and you're set for the next 10 years.
I'll never buy a battery for $1000 I can't fix myself.
Before you do any returns, work with BB tech support on diagnosing the specific problem. You need to determine exactly the state of each battery in the bank.
The most simple and fast thing to do is do a simple voltage test on each battery in the bank. You don't need to disconnect anything. Just put the probes on each battery's positive and negative connection. That will give the first indication of the state of each battery in the pack. If the voltage is different by more than 200 mv something is not right. Could be battery or BMS.
To verify if it's a BMS issue, disconnect all the batteries in the bank, then top charge them manually. Disconnect the BMS, reconnect the batteries together then run them down about 25% of the total capacity. Then check the voltage of each battery again. If they are all equal then the batteries are OK.
Something is amiss with the BMS. Check the settings to make sure it is configured properly. The main setting to check is that balancing is enabled during charging, no need to balance on discharge, and that the other settings are set properly. Check the manual for those.
At that point, get back in a huddle with BB tech support and decide what to do next with them.
Quote from: windtrader on April 08, 2021, 09:21:22 PM
Before you do any returns, work with BB tech support on diagnosing the specific problem. You need to determine exactly the state of each battery in the bank.
The most simple and fast thing to do is do a simple voltage test on each battery in the bank. You don't need to disconnect anything. Just put the probes on each battery's positive and negative connection. That will give the first indication of the state of each battery in the pack. If the voltage is different by more than 200 mv something is not right. Could be battery or BMS.
To verify if it's a BMS issue, disconnect all the batteries in the bank, then top charge them manually. Disconnect the BMS, reconnect the batteries together then run them down about 25% of the total capacity. Then check the voltage of each battery again. If they are all equal then the batteries are OK.
Something is amiss with the BMS. Check the settings to make sure it is configured properly. The main setting to check is that balancing is enabled during charging, no need to balance on discharge, and that the other settings are set properly. Check the manual for those.
At that point, get back in a huddle with BB tech support and decide what to do next with them.
He spent days Don on the phone with tech running tests ,3 are bad it is ok using 4 he told me .I am not close to the bus to help him
Just so you know...
I talked to the Director of Technology at Lion Energy in American Fork, Utah and he said if you ever have a problem with their batteries, and he said their batteries have a limited lifetime warranty and if you have problems with their batteries, they will pay the return shipping if something is wrong with it and will replace it with a brand new battery. They try to make returns/replacements as simple as possible.
That being said, you can get a 15% discount on their batteries like the ones I have for 15% off using this link. The discount will be applied when you Check Out.
https://lionenergy.com/?afmc=BCM15OFF
Please support our advertisers as they are the ones that keep this Forum going.
I am going to hang with my Lifeline 8d's they only drop to 80% in 24 hrs running this electric hog we own, they are heavy suckers though,and take a while to charge back to 100% I cannot get 100% using the chassis alternator driving my alternator only puts out 13.8 v fwiw
@luvrbus - I have an AGM bank as well, also had alternator issues. I assume you know how to adjust the voltage for the alternator. If that's maxed out it could be a bad set of diodes. I pull the cover on my 50DN and found a few questionable ones, replaced and had some success. In the end I replaced the alternator completely and kept the old as a rebuild-able core.
It's super important to get those AGMS up to 14.4 for a good 8-12 hours every few weeks if they aren't getting there regularly. I hear Lifeline has an equalization process where you can do 15.5 or so v for 8 hours and it won't cook the electrolyte.
Maybe you know all this, just sharing my thoughts.
Quote from: neoneddy on April 09, 2021, 07:56:11 AM
@luvrbus - I have an AGM bank as well, also had alternator issues. I assume you know how to adjust the voltage for the alternator. If that's maxed out it could be a bad set of diodes. I pull the cover on my 50DN and found a few questionable ones, replaced and had some success. In the end I replaced the alternator completely and kept the old as a rebuild-able core.
It's super important to get those AGMS up to 14.4 for a good 8-12 hours every few weeks if they aren't getting there regularly. I hear Lifeline has an equalization process where you can do 15.5 or so v for 8 hours and it won't cook the electrolyte.
Maybe you know all this, just sharing my thoughts.
I don't have a 50D mine has a 180 amp,mine is all electronic engine,transmission,suspension even the lights I am leery about turning the voltage up
If they never get to soak at 14.4v you're killing them.
Quote from: neoneddy on April 09, 2021, 11:33:59 AM
If they never get to soak at 14.4v you're killing them.
I run the generator or plug in and the inverter will take care of it
Quote from: neoneddy on April 09, 2021, 11:33:59 AM
If they never get to soak at 14.4v you're killing them.
Lead acid batteries need to be soaked.
Lithium batteries do not, actually they should be partially discharged if they are going to sit idle for long periods of time.
That's why when you get a new device with lithium batteries they want you to charge it first.
Also if you are going to store a lithium battery for a long period of time you should charge it to at least 50%. If you put it into storage when it's gone into safe mode and cut off the output, then the BMS will continue to sip power from the battery cells and eventually get them below their minimum voltage level and kill them.
Used Telsa battery modules are 1/5th the cost on a KWh basis.
Quote from: someguy on April 16, 2021, 11:43:48 AM
Used Telsa battery modules are 1/5th the cost on a KWh basis.
I haven't looked into Tesla cells in a while. The current "best bang for your buck" I've seen is building DIY batteries with cells from Alibaba. If I were to buy my cells today I'd end up with a bit over 15,000 KWh for a bit under 2 grand.
A ? what the hell is a limited life time warranty on a battery >:( >:(
Quote from: someguy on April 16, 2021, 11:43:48 AM
Used Telsa battery modules are 1/5th the cost on a KWh basis.
I think if I was to start from scratch today. I might not use Tesla battery modules given the price pressure on Lithium iron phosphate market which seems to be slowly affecting the used Tesla battery market.
Given that I have two modules now, I am thinking of adding a couple more.
However the Tesla modules have a very high energy density, which saves space in the bay and I have already incurred the overhead for a BMS controller that can handle up to 16 modules.
I agree with the 1/5th cost when you compare with BattleBorn batteries.
I do agree with the previously posted sediment that if your needs can be handled with a couple of BattleBorn batteries then go for it.
After that point I would say go with something you can build and repair yourself.
Quote from: benherman1 on April 16, 2021, 11:56:47 AM
I haven't looked into Tesla cells in a while. The current "best bang for your buck" I've seen is building DIY batteries with cells from Alibaba. If I were to buy my cells today I'd end up with a bit over 15,000 KWh for a bit under 2 grand.
a) Most of the batteries on Alibaba mis rate their capacity.
b) 15,000 KWh for $2,000 ? Please sign me up for about 10 TWh. I'll sell them to Elon.
Quote from: freds on April 16, 2021, 12:32:37 PMgiven the price pressure on Lithium iron phosphate market which seems to be slowly affecting the used Tesla battery market.
Where can you get cells that compete with the Tesla modules on price ?
Is there a write up for your system ? BMS ? Temp protection ? Voltage protection ?
Quote from: someguy on April 19, 2021, 08:49:35 PM
a) Most of the batteries on Alibaba mis rate their capacity.
b) 15,000 KWh for $2,000 ? Please sign me up for about 10 TWh. I'll sell them to Elon.
15 KWh lol. I was mixing my units.
Quote from: someguy on April 19, 2021, 08:52:56 PM
Where can you get cells that compete with the Tesla modules on price ?
Is there a write up for your system ? BMS ? Temp protection ? Voltage protection ?
I haven't done hard calculations on the numbers, but have been watching the YouTube channels "
DIY Solar Power with Will Prowse " and "DavidPoz" on and off, where they do various battery builds.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoj6RxIAQq8kmJme-5dnN0Q (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoj6RxIAQq8kmJme-5dnN0Q)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXJ7onrDcxo2zy8yAsxqwgg (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXJ7onrDcxo2zy8yAsxqwgg)
My Build thread is:
https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/forum/index.php?topic=34318.0 (https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/forum/index.php?topic=34318.0)
I have info on my battery and solar system on pages 2,3,7,8 and 9
I didn't really go into too much detail on the BMS which is: SimpBMS that communicates directly with the Tesla OEM electronics on each battery module. Most people rip this module off and replace it with something else.
You can find a fair amount of discussion on Will Prowse site with the search term: simpbms where I have also posted under the user id's "freds" and "freds2" which I keep getting locked out of as the verification emails go astray and never arrive if you haven't been on in awhile.
https://diysolarforum.com/search/350641/?q=Simpbms&o=relevance (https://diysolarforum.com/search/350641/?q=Simpbms&o=relevance)
The "DavidPoz" channel has a recent review of a multifunction inverter/charger/solar charge controller that is only $900.00 that I think is very attractive. It's limitation is that it is 240V AC on input and output.
However you can use a additional transformer to get 240V/120V split phase that we desire in our buses.
I think the advantage of 240V is that you can feed a multi-zone mini-split heat pump which I have seen people add a dedicated inverter for.
Be careful with dedicated 240 VAC equipment, that it isn't 50 Hz for Europe...
The devil is in the details...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Quote from: buswarrior on April 23, 2021, 05:13:30 AM
Be careful with dedicated 240 VAC equipment, that it isn't 50 Hz for Europe...
The devil is in the details...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
No it can be set for 60HZ, video shows that. Though these days so many things are make for international use that 50/60 isn't really a big thing...
It is a dumb question on my part but will ask anyways do you really think Lithium batteries are here for the long run ?
At least until they run out of Lithium? which they say will happen.
Quote from: luvrbus on April 23, 2021, 08:29:31 PM
It is a dumb question on my part but will ask anyways do you really think Lithium batteries are here for the long run ?
Nah, they're a stepping-stone technology. There are a bunch of promising alternative materials and methods which could be cheaper and safer than lithium without relying on a scarce resource, but for now lithium is just the economic/performance sweet spot with a lot of R&D already under its belt. Might be years or even decades before that dominance wanes, but it'll happen.
Quote from: Dave5Cs on April 23, 2021, 09:06:49 PM
At least until they run out of Lithium? which they say will happen.
There is a mine in Nevada looking for investors he is calling it white gold and explained the mining process to me .I can see why the batteries cost so much it takes 500,000 gals of water to mine a metric ton and a Telsa pack uses 33 lbs that is only 700 batteries,it is to long of a process to go into detail for me to post,but 500,000 gals of water in the Nevada desert doesn't make sense.Green engery is good but we need water in the west.We will be back to square1 depending on China and South America and that would suck
Quote from: luvrbus on April 24, 2021, 05:15:05 AM
There is a mine in Nevada looking for investors he is calling it white gold and explained the mining process to me .I can see why the batteries cost so much it takes 500,000 gals of water to mine a metric ton and a Telsa pack uses 33 lbs that is only 700 batteries,it is to long of a process to go into detail for me to post,but 500,000 gals of water in the Nevada desert doesn't make sense.Green engery is good but we need water in the west.We will be back to square1 depending on China and South America and that would suck
My guess is we'll see major wars in the future fought over water, not oil. When a foreign country buys 1000s of acres of farm land in the US, it's not the land they're after, it's the water to grow the crops. They're essentially exporting the water.
Lithium mining is not the only energy industry which requires an enormous amount of water. Fracking uses about 4 million gallons per well. There are others.
When FoxConn decided to locate to Wisconsin recently, it wasn't because it loves cold - it was because making screens requires an enormous amount of water. Their new property here is within the basin that is served by Lake Michigan.
Quote from: richard5933 on April 24, 2021, 05:52:35 AM
My guess is we'll see major wars in the future fought over water, not oil. When a foreign country buys 1000s of acres of farm land in the US, it's not the land they're after, it's the water to grow the crops. They're essentially exporting the water.
Lithium mining is not the only energy industry which requires an enormous amount of water. Fracking uses about 4 million gallons per well. There are others.
When FoxConn decided to locate to Wisconsin recently, it wasn't because it loves cold - it was because making screens requires an enormous amount of water. Their new property here is within the basin that is served by Lake Michigan.
Fracking is a process used in Lithium mining now what since they want fracking ban
Water is a huge issue, but there may be options. I read an article that said that Israel gets as much as 80% of its water from desalination, and that they recycle almost 90% of their waste water. While I am not sure if those figures are inflated, they do show that we would still have a vast potential to expand our water resources.
Just as we were able to adapt to oil no longer just bursting from the ground, we can adapt to acquisition of water taking a bit more effort.
Quote from: luvrbus on April 16, 2021, 12:09:32 PM
A ? what the hell is a limited life time warranty on a battery >:( >:(
Limited means if you go first, then all bets are off. ;D