How do people heat a bus when traveling in winter if they remove the stock passenger area evaporator and heating coil and circulating blowers ?
Don't remove it. Besides, defrosters are necessary, and required by law.
We heat going down the road with a combination of the OTR heating system, the propane furnace, radiant propane heaters (Mr Heater), electric cube heaters, and the Webasto I installed last fall that preheats the engine and the generator, and heats the basement bays. When it is 20 below driving South from Canada in January, you need all of the above...
I think the ideal coach is all diesel: Webasto or Aquahot type diesel heater that preheats the engine, heats upstairs and downstairs with in-floor heat or heat exchangers, heats the domestic water, and whatever else you like. And a good diesel generator. Solar panels are nice, but they don't work in a snow storm in January.
What anyone in a northern state or Canada calls "winter" and driving down the road is a demanding condition.
As far as a Canadian is concerned, there really isn't a decent alternative to the stock coach heating system for going down the road.
The cold creeps through the walls and windows, the stock system is specifically designed to keep the coach warm from the edges in. Any replacement system will fail, as the heat is not typically delivered to the walls and windows, the way the stock system does.
The total bullshit that busnut wives have to put up with, freezing their asses off inside the coach, while the idiot male is up front toasty with the defroster, after tearing out the rest...
Grounds for divorce, and she won't want the bus in the settlement...
The stock AC is lovely, but not necessary, the stock heat anywhere on the continent that it gets cold, a must have.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Quote from: lostagain on August 15, 2020, 11:45:53 AM
Don't remove it. Besides, defrosters are necessary, and required by law.
I would obviously keep the dash heat/defrost in tact. But almost all the bus conversions I've seen remove the OTR A/C system, including the blowers and also block off the air ducting in the bus.
QuoteWe heat going down the road with a combination of the OTR heating system, the propane furnace, radiant propane heaters (Mr Heater), electric cube heaters, and the Webasto I installed last fall that preheats the engine and the generator, and heats the basement bays. When it is 20 below driving South from Canada in January, you need all of the above...
Why is that ? Why isn't the bus heat system alone enough in your MCI 5? How would an E/J4500 be different ?
QuoteI think the ideal coach is all diesel: Webasto or Aquahot type diesel heater that preheats the engine, heats upstairs and downstairs with in-floor heat or heat exchangers, heats the domestic water, and whatever else you like.
I agree. Tie engine coolant heat into the house heat system with a heat exchanger ? Put heat into the house with fan coils and a heated floor ?
QuoteAnd a good diesel generator. Solar panels are nice, but they don't work in a snow storm in January.
Agreed.
Quote from: buswarrior on August 15, 2020, 03:41:54 PM
What anyone in a northern state or Canada calls "winter" and driving down the road is a demanding condition.
As far as a Canadian is concerned, there really isn't a decent alternative to the stock coach heating system for going down the road.
OK.
QuoteThe cold creeps through the walls and windows, the stock system is specifically designed to keep the coach warm from the edges in. Any replacement system will fail, as the heat is not typically delivered to the walls and windows, the way the stock system does.
I kind of agree with you. So try to keep the stock circulation system intact. But modify it so that it works when stationary and without the engine running.
If I use the stock evaporator, won't the stock blowers take a lot of power to turn when dry camping?
QuoteThe total bullshit that busnut wives have to put up with, freezing their asses off inside the coach, while the idiot male is up front toasty with the defroster, after tearing out the rest...
Grounds for divorce, and she won't want the bus in the settlement...
LOL.
QuoteThe stock AC is lovely, but not necessary, the stock heat anywhere on the continent that it gets cold, a must have.
Glad I asked. Thanks for the advice.
The OTR heating system was mostly removed by the converter in 1989. The only thing left is a heat exchanger in the bedroom, and one just behind the driver's seat, and the defrosters. So driving in 20 below, the propane furnace is on, and if my wife is riding with me, she needs an electric cube heater in front of her that runs off the inverter. Both our front seats have electric heat. I also carry 2 or 3 propane heater for back up, and to put in the bays overnight. Although now with the Webasto, I don't use them so much. Good to have for redundancy. You need to be prepared and ready for boondocking overnight in cold weather with 1500 miles to go till you see warm enough weather...
My old mc8 was set up with a big webasto in-line to the stock heat exchanger.
The stock fans were enabled when plugged in to shore power or generator running.
It was possible to get interior too hot for comfort, if you set the stock temp control to max, in sub zero, with outside air intake open... burning 100 000 btu worth of diesel.
A simple bypass wire to the fan control will do it.
Not efficient, but mother NEVER complained about being cold...
Not the way to set-up a camper, the bus had been a mobile classroom before i got it.
Radiant heat is the way to reduce power consumption, no fans, just the pumps and the boiler.
Nobody complains about too much heating capacity... not enough and you are a failure...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
You'll need to learn one word...redundancy.
Having redundant systems is nearly always a requirement in certain areas. You will have redundant electrical systems - one for use while driving down the road powered off the bus engine, and a totally separate one for use while plugged in or on generator.
Many have redundant a/c systems - like us we have one a/c system (the factory OTR system) for going down the road, and a totally separate system for when we're at a campground.
For heat, we have three systems - the factory OTR system using the heater core for going down the road, and for use while stationary we have electric if we're plugged in and we have propane for when we are dry camping.
Neither of our two heating systems we use while camping will ever keep up with things while we're going down the road. There are just too many ways for air to infiltrate the bus for them to keep up. They do fine with us standing still, but the 60-70 mph cold air finds its way inside.
Many have redundant ways to make hot water - propane, electric, and maybe even with an engine heat exchange coil.
You can pull the stock heater core and fans if you leave the lines to the defroster. The defroster will keep the front few feet of the bus somewhat comfortable, more so if you have a curtain behind the cockpit area. The rest of the bus will depend on what you have back there for heat.
Since you don't have a bus yet, it would be a good idea to wait until you know the condition of the equipment before making decisions. For example, both of my buses have had fully functional OTR a/c and heat. It didn't take much to get our current bus's a/c repaired when the compressor went out, and it's been doing find since with no other problems. Same for the heat - it will keep us toasty. If you end up with a bus with working systems you'll have a totally different plan of attack than if you find a bus where the systems are in need of extensive work.
Often overlooked...
Screw around all you want, when the temp is 100, to get it down to 70, is just 30 degrees...
You've got to have your wits about you to get from zero to 70...
Totally different game... and often, a loser's game, when it comes to busnuts...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Quote from: buswarrior on August 15, 2020, 06:24:37 PM
Often overlooked...
Screw around all you want, when the temp is 100, to get it down to 70, is just 30 degrees...
You've got to have your wits about you to get from zero to 70...
Totally different game... and often, a loser's game, when it comes to busnuts...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
When it's 100 outside we're great at 85. Only one roof air is all we ever needed.
85 in the East without a breeze is sorta sticky. Not many people are comfortable that way, what with the high humidity. So the AC demands might be a little higher. But I think we've now reached a sort of conclusion that around 3-4 tons will get the job done when stationary. Shading the roof with solar cells could help a lot. How you get that is up to you, and OTR is a different matter. I've been thinking that a pair of 18K sealed compressors parallel to the engine driven Carrier pump could do it.
But on the heat since you're talking about buses newer than most here have, it is most likely to come equipped with a Webasto or Eiberspacher aux heater of around 80-90K btu capacity. In most cases that is going to be enough to keep the coach toasty warm and also heat the engine to operating temperature, which is its intended function. However with a little re-plumbing you can isolate the coach from the engine and heat just one or the other and then there is more than enough heat for the coach under just about any situation I would think. That is my primary plan for heat. Then supplement it with a propane fired furnace. You could add radiant, space heaters, baseboard units, floor cables, or anything else you want to run from your shore line. But by and large generators tend to be noisy so a good neighbor avoids running one. Just my thoughts but I agree, get the bus and then you can sort out just what you will need.
Jim
We almost never hang around where it is lower than 30-40 degrees for length of time.
I have two heat pump mini splits and a Mr. Buddy propane heater. I also have a standard propane RV furnace, but I haven't had to turn it on since I don't remember when.
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on August 16, 2020, 09:15:24 AM
OTR is a different matter. I've been thinking that a pair of 18K sealed compressors parallel to the engine driven Carrier pump could do it.
Are you saying that the stock OTR A/C in an E/J4500 wouldn't be enough to keep the coach cool when driving in hot weather ???
QuoteBut on the heat since you're talking about buses newer than most here have, it is most likely to come equipped with a Webasto or Eiberspacher aux heater of around 80-90K btu capacity. In most cases that is going to be enough to keep the coach toasty warm and also heat the engine to operating temperature, which is its intended function. However with a little re-plumbing you can isolate the coach from the engine and heat just one or the other and then there is more than enough heat for the coach under just about any situation I would think. That is my primary plan for heat.
I didn't realize those heaters put out that much heat. I thought they were 20,000 BTU.
Let's say the bus I purchase has a high output engine heater. How does one transfer the heat from the coolant to the air in the bus. First off, with a heat exchanger, so that the bus doesn't need to have engine coolant circulating through the living space. But then what ? Use the stock fan coil ?
QuoteThen supplement it with a propane fired furnace. You could add radiant, space heaters, baseboard units, floor cables, or anything else you want to run from your shore line.
90,000 BTU is enough to heat a medium sized house in Canada in the dead of winter. You need to supplement that ?
How does the heat system work on a Marathon or Featherlight coach ?
I'm an avid skier. I want a full 4 season coach. I want to boondock at a ski resort and spend the night toasty warm.
As much as I enjoy innovation and encourage people to try new things, there's something to be said for tried and true methods.
Sometimes the answer to "why doesn't anyone do xxx?" is because no one has thought of it yet. Or no one has figured out how to make it economically viable. Or,...
Sometimes the answer is simply it's no better than the current, tried and true, method.
One must check which aux heater is installed in any particular coach.
It could be anything... previous owners cannot be trusted to spend money on correct replacements... what market was it originally bought for?
The re-plumbing involved almost suggests removing it from the engine room and putting it midships somewhere more convenient.
They are plumbed parallel to the engine/stock heater, not in-line... getting stuff isolated, not creating feedback loops that will overheat the engine, directing the heat where you want it...
I am still scratching my head as to which way to execute this project.
For a ski bunny coacha big decision is whether you will run the generator overnight or not. Available power, dictates radiant or fan forced heat exchangers.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Are people aware of the affordable Chinese 2 and 5 KW diesel fired air heaters ? Van people love them. There are also Chinese clone 5 KW diesel fired water heaters.
I'll be putting hydronic heat in the floor of my conversion. I'm thinking 5KW hydronic plus 2 x 5 KW diesel fired air heaters should keep it very warm when stationary. Still trying to figure out the OTR solution.
If the bus I buy has a 90K BTU engine heater, that changes everything. I'm focusing on buses that lived in the south, so ?
The problem with propane Buddy burners is they release moisture and CO2 into the air in the bus.
I don't think any of the Webasto heaters are 90K BTU.
https://www.webasto-comfort.com/int/product-overview/#!Bus/Heating/Water_Heaters
Until recently the largest was the Thermo Pro 90, which is 9 KW or about 30,000 BTU.
Look at DBW models of Webasto and Proheat X45 were also popular.
You get what you pay for... better have CO monitor in the coach for when that knock-off heater cracks its heat exchanger and tries to poison you.
A big DBW 300 plumbed in-line to the stock heat exchanger, and the stock blowers being run on a bypass, takes about 11 amps of 120v AC fed to a Trace 4024 connected to the batteries.
A Yamaha 3k generator will quietly purr all night keeping the coach as warm as you dare to set the temp.
No cold spots, heat right out of the walls, no condensation, fresh air intake, and the engine will light off like a summer's day.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
yup
diesel boiler to heat coolant to cozy fan heater = warmmmmm
https://www.busesandmore.com/inventory/new-proheat-x45-24-volt-coolant-heaters/
https://photos.app.goo.gl/4uJ4ybsbVNpTUydT9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/CuTKNjr4XfQrFEaF9
to kick space cozy heaters under kitchen cabinets and in many other areas through out the coach
https://photos.app.goo.gl/dJb1mgHng9ngVByp9
dave
The Webasto website is not the easiest to navigate, but if you have the model number you can find it. Same for Eiberspacher.
Think of the system as 3 big loops. The aux heater loop, the coach loop and the engine loop. There are valves to isolate the coach loop from the engine loop. What is needed for RV use is valving to isolate the engine and allow flow between the aux and coach loops. You shouldn't have any trouble figuring out how to do that. Dead simple compared to CAN bus.
On the AC, the MCI has two 1.5 Ton evaps in the bin rack and a 1 ton in the dash so all that's needed to get 3-4 tons is a shutoff on the main evap. Run the sealed compressors on AC.
The rear bay of the DL has room for about 400-500 gallons for fluid and still be able to swing up the HVAC door. How you apportion that would be up to the owner. Other models will be different.
Jim
Quote from: someguy on August 16, 2020, 01:38:58 PM
I don't think any of the Webasto heaters are 90K BTU.
https://www.webasto-comfort.com/int/product-overview/#!Bus/Heating/Water_Heaters
Until recently the largest was the Thermo Pro 90, which is 9 KW or about 30,000 BTU.
The DBW 2010 is 45k, 2020 is 80k, and 300 is 104k...all of which have been around for quite some time now.
Thanks.
I got rid of all the central heating system. I kept the heater core, had it pressure tested, and mounted it lengthwise under my washer and closet in the hallway. I have 2-14" 12v radiator fans on it, and a ball valve to shut it off in summer. The thermostat is by the driver's seat. When it kicks on, I can count to 10 and then feel the heat in the driver's seat. Works incredibly well. I also have three roof A/C's with heating strips, 35,000btu propane furnace and two electric space heaters-which is what we use when at the power pole. Good Luck, TomC
I have 3 heat pump roof tops and the 600 Aqua Hot 65.000 btu in a 45 ft coach the floor heat alone 58 degrees kept it nice and warm in the New Mexico winter last year,I never turned 1 zone on just the floor heat,be prepared the diesel fired burners will suck some fuel in 24 hrs like 3 to 4 gals a day for a Aqua Hot with on demand hot water
How efficient is a Aqua Hot ? 3 to 4 gallons of diesel fuel a day is a lot.
How is one supposed to heat a bus when boondocking ? Last time I was in California, propane was expensive and hard to find.
Rinnai 75K BTU Boiler/Tankless water heater, propane. $2154. 95.5% efficient. Weighs 91 pounds. Has a recirculation pump built in. All one would need are some zone valves.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rinnai-E-Series-Propane-Condensing-Boiler-Tankless-Water-Heater-with-75-000-BTU-Input-E75CRP/306698776?MERCH=REC-_-plpbrowse_multi-_-NA-_-306698776-_-N
Run the whole coach on propane ? Cooking, heat, water heater, engine heater via a heat exchanger.
90K BTU model. 64 pounds. Standby 3.5W. Running 177 Watts. Cheaper than a Aquahot. $2350.
https://images.homedepot-static.com/catalog/pdfImages/35/3537cefc-5eb3-4a5c-8831-51d60840863f.pdf
Apparently one can use a tankless hot water heater, which is a bit less expensive, for radiant heat. But then you need a heat exchanger to get hot water from it and its more complicated. And tankless hot water heaters aren't designed to be boilers.
https://www.jlconline.com/how-to/plumbing/heating-a-home-with-a-tankless-water-heater_o
My last house had radiant heat. I'm familiar with some of this.
180,000 BTU Rheem propane combi boiler. Would do hot water, house heat and engine heat. $1759. 95% efficient. Draws 180 watts, including the circulation pump when running. 15+ amps from 12 volts.
https://images.homedepot-static.com/catalog/pdfImages/7e/7ec3ea00-658b-4e43-80e3-bfc5fe7a90ae.pdf
FYI 10 Gallon RV hot water heaters are 70% efficient and 10K BTU. $850.
Wouldn't take long to heat up the bus and/or engine with 180,000 BTUs.
I looked at doing this but you would need a good size propane tank
" Rinnai 75K BTU Boiler/Tankless water heater, propane. $2154. 95.5% efficient. Weighs 91 pounds. Has a recirculation pump built in. All one would need are some zone valves. "
the diesel boilers are crap when it comes to efficiency maybe 55-60 % and never touch the exhaust pipe as it will burn the skin off you but I have a 190 gal. diesel tank and when on the road it is real easy to fill up the tank unlike trying to find a propane station that you can get into
I had a in floor hydronic heat system on the M C I that worked great when driving but when camped it took to long for the heat to get through the floor even with the metal heat plates under the 1/2 " pex pipe in the floor .
the cozy heaters are almost instant heat when you want it but yes there is the noise of the muffin fans
https://www.parts.rvhydronicheaterrepair.com/Heat-Exchanger-Cozy-III-EXE-103-0EX-Non-Stock-Item-EXE-103-0EX.htm
dave
Quote from: someguy on August 17, 2020, 01:56:41 AM
How is one supposed to heat a bus when boondocking ? Last time I was in California, propane was expensive and hard to find....
...Apparently one can use a tankless hot water heater, which is a bit less expensive, for radiant heat...
I think that this is the problem many run into - realizing that while there are many options none of them are free and/or easy.
Yes - whatever you choose to do to heat and cool a bus it's going to consume fuel and cost. Solar & lithium setups are starting to be more able to handle HVAC functions, but they come at a price.
Tankless water heaters are great at saving fuel for making hot water, but they do it at the expense of consuming more water.
Everything on a bus conversion is a tradeoff. Weight, cost, fuel consumption, style, availability, convenience, etc. all have to be balanced in nearly every decision as systems are designed and installed.
And, if propane (or any type of fuel) is difficult to find or expensive in one location, get it somewhere else or choose a different fuel. Around here (and most places) propane is reasonably priced and widely available. If there's a warehouse anywhere near you, odds are they are getting their propane tanks filled in the area.
I know this is Neanderthal but going to throw it out there anyway... Wood fired heat is feasible & actually is synonymous with boon-docking. We thought it was far fetched (in the RV world) until spending time boon-docking in outlying areas in the great white north. Most successful GWN boon-dockers always incorporate at least 3 of four types of heat, that is: fuel oil, propane, electric, or wood. With some ingenuity and copper stilling techniques heat from a wood stove can be utilized in numerous ways. Many GWN RV's had wood stove chimneys on them. On our Camp Malemute in Tok Alaska wifey & I have been toying around with the idea of trying a winter there in the bus. Why not? Full hook ups including 50 amp RV plug in - that would cover the electric heat. 4 portable 30 lb. LP tanks on board with two stand-up 100 lb. LP tanks back-up for redundant on board propane furnaces. 200 gal. fuel oil tank and vintage 50,000 btu Sears oil burning furnace. So that covers 3 of the 4 heat sources. Then there's the true reliable back up - a vintage Jotul 602 wood stove. What could possibly go wrong to leave you completely out in the cold? Oh forgot to mention the neighbor has a small guest house as an emergency get away & fuel stations / fuel delivery is within a mile or 2 away... Crazy but thinkin' 'bout it... Just thinking out loud, carry on :^
2cents free.
I see radiant floors as an option and it's a fine idea for home heating during a cold season or two. In a bus, there is far more intermittent use, maybe even daily, and in general radiant flooring takes 100% to get warned up and more time to get to temperature. It seems only worthwhile if that heat is going to be constantly on. Now, maybe with careful selection of materials and design, a radiant floor system can be constructed to minimize thermal mass so the coach heats up faster and use less energy.
Likewise on inside stoves. If properly chosen, look to mariners, it can be safe, aesthetically pleasing and comforting. Central systems are easy to use, low maintenance, and ease of supplying fuel source, just the opposite for wood.
Finally, with solar and lithium now able to run a bus fully offered, electrical heat is worth revisiting. Combined with mini-split for heating and cooling and occasional use of space heating, this may be the best configuration today. Those small radiant heaters throw instant heat that nothing else will match for speed or convenience. There are many times when you just need to knock off the chill for a bit, taking shower, getting in/out of bed. Once you're dressed you're on your way. Heat and go.
Quote from: sledhead on August 17, 2020, 05:02:15 AM
I looked at doing this but you would need a good size propane tank
" Rinnai 75K BTU Boiler/Tankless water heater, propane. $2154. 95.5% efficient. Weighs 91 pounds. Has a recirculation pump built in. All one would need are some zone valves. "
Because 75K BTU is a pretty good draw on a propane system, especially if the tank is a bit cold or because the coach is going to use a lot of propane ? Or both ?
Quotethe diesel boilers are crap when it comes to efficiency maybe 55-60 % and never touch the exhaust pipe as it will burn the skin off you but I have a 190 gal. diesel tank and when on the road it is real easy to fill up the tank unlike trying to find a propane station that you can get into
I agree on all counts. But the coach could be equipped with 30 pound propane tanks which could be filled without moving it. That is how RVs handle propane.
QuoteI had a in floor hydronic heat system on the M C I that worked great when driving
Please tell me more about this.
BTW, do you winter camp in your rig while snowmobiling ? Do you drive your rig in winter ? Does it stay warm ?
Quotebut when camped it took to long for the heat to get through the floor even with the metal heat plates under the 1/2 " pex pipe in the floor .
Why was it different when camped versus when driving ? Was it using the same circulation pump ?
Quote from: sledhead on August 17, 2020, 05:02:15 AM
the cozy heaters are almost instant heat when you want it but yes there is the noise of the muffin fans
https://www.parts.rvhydronicheaterrepair.com/Heat-Exchanger-Cozy-III-EXE-103-0EX-Non-Stock-Item-EXE-103-0EX.htm
Quote from: sledhead on August 16, 2020, 02:37:21 PM
diesel boiler to heat coolant to cozy fan heater = warmmmmm
https://www.busesandmore.com/inventory/new-proheat-x45-24-volt-coolant-heaters/
https://photos.app.goo.gl/4uJ4ybsbVNpTUydT9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/CuTKNjr4XfQrFEaF9
to kick space cozy heaters under kitchen cabinets and in many other areas through out the coach
https://photos.app.goo.gl/dJb1mgHng9ngVByp9
dave
Thanks for these. Those toe kick heaters look perfect.
The Proheat X45 is 45K BTU and uses 1.2L/hr or 0.32 gallons per hour. Diesel fuel is 139,000 BTU/gallon. 0.32 gallons/hour x 139,000 = 44,480 BTU input. Apparently this device is 100% efficient !
I'd really like to use a diesel fired heater if I can and avoid the hassle of having propane tanks and finding propane.
QuoteI'd really like to use a diesel fired heater if I can and avoid the hassle of having propane tanks and finding propane.
It takes real effort to eliminate propane. If you are boondocking you need a lot of power to even run an efficient residential refrigerator, at least 1kW storage. You need propane for cooktop and oven unless going electric, again more energy needed. Some use propane for hot water too. lots to think about before zero propane, almost same as zero generator.
Quote from: someguy on August 17, 2020, 11:52:55 AM
Because 75K BTU is a pretty good draw on a propane system, especially if the tank is a bit cold or because the coach is going to use a lot of propane ? Or both ?
I agree on all counts. But the coach could be equipped with 30 pound propane tanks which could be filled without moving it. That is how RVs handle propane.
Please tell me more about this.
BTW, do you winter camp in your rig while snowmobiling ? Do you drive your rig in winter ? Does it stay warm ?
Why was it different when camped versus when driving ? Was it using the same circulation pump ?
I drive to Florida each year after Christmas and some years it is really cold - 30 and both coach's have been awesome in the cold
when driving the heat was free from the 6v92ta through a large heat exchanger then to a circ pump that ran through 3 zones in the coach floor front to back . the problem when camping was it took to long to heat up the floor with the diesel boiler or a 1500 watt electric water heater as said above sometimes you need the heat right now .
30 lb propane tanks would work
my coach I have now was a all elect coach when I got it and I removed the 2 burner cook top and replaced it with a propane 2 burner cook top as well as a quick release propane bbq and installed 2 x 20 lb tanks on a slide . I use about 1 tank a year and we use the coach a lot . sometimes for months at a time
dave
"Are people aware of the affordable Chinese 2 and 5 KW diesel fired air heaters ? Van people love them. There are also Chinese clone 5 KW diesel fired water heaters."
Are they also aware of "where" the corona virus came from??
The problem with propane is that it can be a real hassle to find when away from home. On the interstate highways, every Flying J has it, great. But in the country side in the small towns, you look up a propane place, get there and you find closed, or you have to unhook the toad to get to the back of the lot. Mexico is worst because what they call propane is actually butane. That is fine in hot weather, but not back up North where it freezes. Diesel is way easier to get, like at every street corner almost. I would go all diesel if I built a bus. With solar panels which are great when the sun shines. And you still need a good generator because the ski hills with lots of snow don't get a lot of sunshine...
Quote from: windtrader on August 17, 2020, 02:41:55 PM
It takes real effort to eliminate propane. If you are boondocking you need a lot of power to even run an efficient residential refrigerator, at least 1kW storage. You need propane for cooktop and oven unless going electric, again more energy needed. Some use propane for hot water too. lots to think about before zero propane, almost same as zero generator.
I know !
I've been looking at cooking and refrigeration too, just not discussing it on the forums.
You are right... the most efficient residential fridges use about 1KWHr of energy per day. Probably need a 1KW solar system to support a fridge like that. Yet many of the larger 5ers and Class As now come with a residential fridge. Propane fridges also need a hole in the side of the bus, as well as a roof vent.
Ditto for induction cook tops. Many 5ers and Class As are now using induction cook tops instead of propane.
Not sure what to do about things.
For refrigerators there are also 12vdc compressor units. None of the propane hassle or danger, and far less energy hungry than residential.
QuoteNot sure what to do about things
Hey Someguy. You have earned the first merit badge of the Order of the Busnut! You now are humbled that the more you know the less you know. As you continue to learn about all this, the next badge is making sense of the most common options busnuts have adopted.
This is why I asked the question earlier about your unique situation: time, budget, planned use, etc. What works best for you depends on these factors. If you struggle to clearly answer those questions, you need to stop researching and be able to answer those questions. At that point, navigating through the forest without banging and into and tripping over trees as the path forward becomes clearer.
For example, in this discussion about onboard energy sources, whether it be propane, house batteries, diesel, etc., if your layovers are always sites with a 50amp 220vac, then nearly this entire topic becomes a waste of time as you can just wire up everything to run off AC. And there are some here who do just that. At the other bookend is 100% off grid and zero dependence on power off the pole. As you see, what you spec in your build depends all on how you plan to use the bus. My advice - put the catalog down and do that homework first. It'll be better for you and us here.
Quote from: richard5933 on August 17, 2020, 06:15:23 PM
For refrigerators there are also 12vdc compressor units. None of the propane hassle or danger, and far less energy hungry than residential.
The amount of work done by the fridge compressor to keep food cold is the same whether the compressor is driven by an AC motor or a DC motor. I see little gain by switching to a DC compressor given the same fridge size with the same insulation.
Quote from: windtrader on August 17, 2020, 06:23:08 PM
you need to stop researching and be able to answer those questions.
No I don't.
You'll get there, no need to be in a great hurry. Being in a rush always costs you, time, money, or both.
Now about those refrigerators. Residential fridges are nice, no getting around that, and the newer ones are pretty efficient too. Efficient enough that you can run them on batteries... for awhile. How long a while? Hard to say but for sure you'll need a way to top off the batteries. Solar is expensive and a bit awkward, generators make noise. But the old school solution is still a very viable one. RV fridges run on the ammonia cycle and use heat to make cold. Sounds kinda counterintuitive and is a crazy mixup of chemistry and convection but it works and an RV fridge can run on a bottle of propane for a LONG time. They also run on AC. A few run on DC as well but unless you spend a lot of time driving that's just an unnecessary expense. The new ones are very nice too. Be prepared to spend a little money, but in my mind the convenience is worth it.
I don't think you should try to get by without propane. Put a large enough tank in the bay to satisfy your needs but plan on other energy sources for the heavy lifting. For instance, cooking over gas is so much more satisfying than with electric. Gas water heaters give out that warm roar that tells you when the water is hot by going silent. (adding electric here makes them heat twice as fast too) A gas furnace can take the chill off quickly.
Otoh, an electric oven is way better than a gas one usually. If your bus has the 80 or 90K aux heater why not use it? You'll be refilling the tank soon anyway. And a shore line is always your friend. Then there is the genny. Of course it should be diesel, or in my case propane because I got a killer deal on a gas fired residential aux power unit. (so I will have a larger propane tank because of it) Solar is wonderful but has limitations that can remove it from your plans. We have some good threads on it here, maybe you will like it.
It's all compromise though. There is no right and not all that many wrongs. It's just the balance that you find most satisfying.
Jim
Our LP RV fridge seems to run forever on a tank of LP. When there is 110 present it's on that. It's the only way we've ever known and love it - it works for us. Then there's the 12 volt 110 volt chest fridge freezer in the bottom compartment next to the tool room. That's a story for a different day...
Call it redundancy. :)
Quote from: someguy on August 17, 2020, 07:26:39 PM
No I don't.
Boy, you are some guy. Sounds like you got it all sorted out so I'm out. Good luck some guy. bye
For the price of a larger RV (propane) fridge you can buy a residential fridge and a bunch of solar panels. I'm hoping to use 2 Tesla model S batteries in my conversion, for > 10 KWHrs of energy storage. A high efficiency residential fridge will use about 1 KWHr a day.
Solar isn't going to help in the dead of winter, of course. But I don't expect to be boondocking for long periods of time in the dead of winter.
Ice makers take a lot of energy ! Either the fridge I buy can't have an ice maker or I need to be able to turn the ice maker off entirely when operating from battery.
These people replaced the RV fridge with a residential fridge in their 2000 Country Coach. They also redid the entire interior. Just like renovating a residence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeYbC_mRaVg&list=PLH9qlI-gPYX7VLH2j8-8gwwIlCOvhTeyY&index=3
At times their coach interior looks like a bus conversion.
It turns out pretty nice.
Quote from: dtcerrato on August 17, 2020, 08:36:42 AM
I know this is Neanderthal but going to throw it out there anyway... Wood fired heat is feasible & actually is synonymous with boon-docking. We thought it was far fetched (in the RV world) until spending time boon-docking in outlying areas in the great white north.
I'm totally for an indoor wood stove/fireplace. I detest the fake electric ones. One could use a propane fireplace as well, but their efficiency is pretty low. ~40%.
Would be nothing better than to have an indoor fire in winter or on a cool, rainy summer night. This deserves more thought.
QuoteWith some ingenuity and copper stilling techniques heat from a wood stove can be utilized in numerous ways. Many GWN RV's had wood stove chimneys on them. On our Camp Malemute in Tok Alaska wifey & I have been toying around with the idea of trying a winter there in the bus. Why not? Full hook ups including 50 amp RV plug in - that would cover the electric heat. 4 portable 30 lb. LP tanks on board with two stand-up 100 lb. LP tanks back-up for redundant on board propane furnaces. 200 gal. fuel oil tank and vintage 50,000 btu Sears oil burning furnace. So that covers 3 of the 4 heat sources. Then there's the true reliable back up - a vintage Jotul 602 wood stove. What could possibly go wrong to leave you completely out in the cold?
LOL. Seems you have it covered.
QuoteOh forgot to mention the neighbor has a small guest house as an emergency get away & fuel stations / fuel delivery is within a mile or 2 away... Crazy but thinkin' 'bout it... Just thinking out loud, carry on :^
:)
I would suggest making a skirting barrier all around the bottom of the bus with a vapor barrier and something like bales of hay, assuming that you might have prolonged periods of deep sub zero temperatures. The interior walls of the bus should have a good vapor barrier and ample insulation. Any metal protruding from the outside to the inside will develop perma-frost. The wood stove will need to be a proportional size for your space, otherwise it might get to be too hot. The Jotul 602 is a good stove, but it might be too big for your square footage. Hopefully, you would have access to hardwood firewood because the softwoods won't last long. Don't forget to get some Cabin Fever medicine, since you possibly will be buried in snow. ;)
Biggest problem with a wood stove is bringing in the wood and taking out the ashes. Both of which are dirty. It may be fine for an occasional decorative fireplace and we all love the thought of it, but for practicality in terms of a permanent heat source it went out with the horse and buggy. Try it for awhile and see. Your wife will not thank you for it. Also a bit bulky and inconvenient for an emergency heat source in a bus.
Jim
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on August 18, 2020, 08:47:48 AM
Biggest problem with a wood stove is bringing in the wood and taking out the ashes. Both of which are dirty. It may be fine for an occasional decorative fireplace and we all love the thought of it, but for practicality in terms of a permanent heat source it went out with the horse and buggy. Try it for awhile and see. Your wife will not thank you for it. Also a bit bulky and inconvenient for an emergency heat source in a bus.
Jim
There are many thousands of people using firewood as a main source of heat who would disagree. Nothing beats the aroma and charm of a wood stove. When you come in from outside when it is bitterly cold there is nothing that thaws you out better than standing by the stove. So what you have to chop wood and take out ashes, it's good exercise. A properly sized stove would work in a bus, given safe spacing and wall protection. I have happily burned hundreds of cords of wood, and the only chimney fire was caused by my wife putting too big a piece of wood in, preventing the door from being closed all the way. That was 35 years ago, and she still thanks me for not bringing it up. :D
Case in point with the fridge - a Dometic Elite 2+2 13.5 cubic foot fridge is $3,000 new and pretty hard to find used. A similar residential fridge can be purchased for $1000 or so. That leaves $2,000 to invest in solar and batteries. Can one build a solar and battery system that generates 1.5KW of power to run the fridge *most days* ?
Pretty close, yes. Solar panels cost about $1 per watt. Tesla 5.2 KWHr Model S battery packs presently sell for $1100. The cost of these components is falling quite rapidly. Assuming one gets an average of 2 hours of full sunshine most days, 750 watts of solar will generate enough power for the fridge. Assuming the fridge uses 1.5 KWHr per day, a Model S battery would store enough energy to power it for 3 days with no sunshine.
You're talking about a $150K coach and you're going to complain about a $3K fridge? I'll guarantee you that a 20lb propane bottle will last a whole lot longer than 3 days. And you won't have to worry about the sun.
But it seems you may be a techie. Yeah I tried that path for awhile. Got tired of the failures and expense and unfufilled claims of BET (bleeding edge technology and usually a bad bet) and now I lean more toward the tried and proven. Cheaper, easier, more usable, less frustrating and more reliable. Not all the bells and whistles but I find I can do without them. That's alright though, somebody has to make the sacrifice. Might as well be you. Hopefully it won't leave too many scars.
Jim
Companies like Dickinson Marine have some stoves/heaters that are commonly used on boats that may work for you.
http://dickinsonmarine.com/
Money well spent, if you choose a Dickinson product.
Dry lovely silent heat.
With a small tank up in a cupboard, gravity fed, no power needed.
Have one on a 37 foot boat, 2 winters now, successfully winter live aboard in Lake Ontario in Toronto.
Ask if they have any quality control units coming available, for some modest savings.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior