A couple weeks ago I brought my MCI 102dl3 into the shop just to get a inspection before I purchased it. Everything checked out ok. However, the next day when I went to pick it up the batteries were only at 20 volts and wouldn't start. So I borrowed the batteries from the C3 bus I have and installed them into the DL3 bus. It started up and I drove home. Then I parked it and turned off the main shutoff.
A couple days passed and I went to start the bus and no power to the master dash switch. So I checked the batteries and they were drained again. I disconnected the batteries and charged them over night and hooked them back up with the same result. So I must have something that is draining my battery. I will need to chase that down. However, my main problem now is that I get 24 volts at the main switch in the battery compartment but nothing at the dash.
Is there a fuse Somewhere that I'm missing? I checked with my voltmeter for power in the front junction panel by the drivers side and I have no power anywhere even though I have power at the battery, vanner, etc. So somewhere between the battery compartment and the dash (and engine bay panel) I am loosing the connection. I have done a bunch of searches on the forum and read a lot of posts but just can't seem to find the solution.
THanks for the help
There is a master disconnect switch to cut off the start battery from the coach. On my MC8, it is in the battery bay.
Yes, what's weird is when the main disconnect in the battery bay is on my master switch in the dash has no power. So I am wondering if there is a fuse or something I am missing between the batter bay and the master switch on the dash?
Quote from: windtrader on April 22, 2019, 05:40:40 PM
There is a master disconnect switch to cut off the start battery from the coach. On my MC8, it is in the battery bay.
Did you have a ground go bad? Or, is one of your master switches bad?
You checked the output lugs from the master switch?
Jim
The circuit for a 1989 MC-9 is battery to master disconnect to AC panel (roof of front luggage bay) bus bar with no breaker in the path. From AC bus bar via 105 amp auto reset breaker to front panel bus bar. From front panel bus bar via 30 amp breaker to master switch. I think that is also an auto reset breaker, in the main panel. On my bus 1980 MC-5C, the 30 amp breaker is the lower left most breaker, and the only 30 amp breaker, screwed into the bus bar. I would look for voltage on the main panel bus bar and the output of the 30 amp breaker before I took the dash apart. The main output connection point from the master switch is stud 14 in the main panel.
Brian
My circuit is basically the same as what Brian mentions, with the 30 amp master switch feed breaker in the front panel. As for the batteries draining down, do you have a single 12v wire coming off the battery? If so, look and see what is on the stud that is fed by the 12 volt spare. It can run down the battery quickly without a battery minder.
An equalizer can drain batteries also, some are wired directly bypassing the disconnect switch so they are always on.
On the dl3 the main disconnect does NOT disable the vanner, as the ecm and tcm are supplied constant power. As for the no power at the dash, others have pretty much covered what needs to be checked. Follow the path, starting at the output side of the disconnect. Then on to the ac box, then the driver side box. Once you get the power restored, we can proceed with steps to troubleshoot the possible reasons for your battery drain.
Yes, I checked the output lugs on the master switch inside the battery compartment. It is working correctly at over 24 volts.
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on April 22, 2019, 09:05:45 PM
You checked the output lugs from the master switch?
Jim
Ok, I will check those out today. Is the 30 amp breaker a manual or auto reset. If it's auto then it should have reset itself. Thank you for your advise. I will post what I find this afternoon.
Quote from: bevans6 on April 23, 2019, 04:03:00 AM
The circuit for a 1989 MC-9 is battery to master disconnect to AC panel (roof of front luggage bay) bus bar with no breaker in the path. From AC bus bar via 105 amp auto reset breaker to front panel bus bar. From front panel bus bar via 30 amp breaker to master switch. I think that is also an auto reset breaker, in the main panel. On my bus 1980 MC-5C, the 30 amp breaker is the lower left most breaker, and the only 30 amp breaker, screwed into the bus bar. I would look for voltage on the main panel bus bar and the output of the 30 amp breaker before I took the dash apart. The main output connection point from the master switch is stud 14 in the main panel.
Brian
That sounds good I appreciate the help.
Quote from: thomasinnv on April 23, 2019, 09:10:10 AM
On the dl3 the main disconnect does NOT disable the vanner, as the ecm and tcm are supplied constant power. As for the no power at the dash, others have pretty much covered what needs to be checked. Follow the path, starting at the output side of the disconnect. Then on to the ac box, then the driver side box. Once you get the power restored, we can proceed with steps to troubleshoot the possible reasons for your battery drain.
Go into the front left luggage compartment, look up and open the ac junction box. There is most likely a sticker inside the cover, find and check the main 24v input from the battery compartment and output to the front jbox. If there is no schematic inside the cover then it's time to bust out "da book"
I've found that the equalizer by itself, won't drain the batteries, all things being normal, healthy batteries, etc.
However, a 12 volt load will trigger the equalizer to do its job...
The equalizer has a prescribed connect and disconnect order for the cables, some have got away with ignoring them?
If you control the 12 volt loads, then the equalizer should be ok left in the stock circuit location and you don't have to wonder about a self inflicted smoke escape?
On a unit I was involved with, there was a 12 volt shut-off added to the wall, right beside the 24 volt cut-off in the battery compartment.
Newer coaches, it is a combined switch for the 2 voltages.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
I think the DL3 has the combined switch. It sounds like two issues to me, power to the front panel, and an unswitched draw. So for the second the 12v side of the vanner seems to be the place to start, perhaps by isolating (disconnecting) all loads coming off it. For the first that left bay panel sounds like the logical next step.
Jim
Yes the dl3 does use a combined 12v/24v disconnect switch. Theres no telling what modifications/addons the po may have done. Proper configuration would be a dedicated lead from the 12v center tap at the batteries to the 12v junction block in the battery compartment which feeds all the ecm/tcm fuses ONLY. The large 12v center tap cable should feed a 105 amp circuit breaker next to the batteries, then the hot side of the main disconnect where the 12v lead from the vanner should also be connected. The switched side of the main disconnect should feed all other 12v loads. This configuration ensures that all 12v loads are disconnected with the exception of the ecm/tcm.
This lists a lot of things that may not be relevant here, but it's a good source for troubleshooting some of those circuits.
http://www.mcicoach.com/service-support/serinfo/serinfo07K.htm
Did I see an new R&M fibreglass bus dashboard for sale on Facebook someplace?
Never can find stuff twice on there... wish peeps would be more active on the classifieds on BCM/BNO, where stuff doesn't disappear...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Ok, so I have 24 volts at the 30 amp breaker under the drivers window but nothing at the switch. So I opened up the dash and there was a bunch of additional devices wired into the dash. I believe they gps tracking units for fleet management. One box is a Verizon box labeled network fleet. The other is a cell and antenna. Either way I am not sure where to look for power on this switch and my manual dosen't have a wiring diagram for the master switch. Is there a way I can bypass the switch?
There's no bypass for the master switch.
Get the right pages with the schematics. If your book is missing stuff, get a new one.
Take careful pictures of all the wiring, you might make things worse as this continues...
Remove those other devices, they may have triggered a "power off" security feature. They will also be good candidates for parasitic power draining.
All wires that are extra add-ons, remove and terminate properly. Every one of them represents an electrical short later on.
Restored to stock, things will be much more pleasant.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
That's great advice. The manuals I have are downloaded from the MCI website. I will nee to study them very carefully. I think your right about a "power off" feature because I can't find any power in the dash but I do have power in the front panel. Is there a way to reset the system? I put a high amp switch to the master ground in the battery compartment. I think that cuts off all power even from the parasitic draw. It also dosn't help that I am color blind. Good thing the wires have codes on them.
Quote from: buswarrior on April 23, 2019, 02:30:55 PM
There's no bypass for the master switch.
Get the right pages with the schematics. If your book is missing stuff, get a new one.
Take careful pictures of all the wiring, you might make things worse as this continues...
Remove those other devices, they may have triggered a "power off" security feature. They will also be good candidates for parasitic power draining.
All wires that are extra add-ons, remove and terminate properly. Every one of them represents an electrical short later on.
Restored to stock, things will be much more pleasant.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
I cleaned up the master ground in the battery bay and also put a large cut off switch so I can cut the ground and stop any parasitic draws.
Quote from: richard5933 on April 22, 2019, 06:59:47 PM
Did you have a ground go bad? Or, is one of your master switches bad?
Could you post a pic or send me a pic of how your batteries are connected? Also, If one of the fuses on either the ECM or the TCM would blow would that shut the whole system down? Perhaps there was a short when the batteries were switched out?
Quote from: thomasinnv on April 23, 2019, 10:35:03 AM
Yes the dl3 does use a combined 12v/24v disconnect switch. Theres no telling what modifications/addons the po may have done. Proper configuration would be a dedicated lead from the 12v center tap at the batteries to the 12v junction block in the battery compartment which feeds all the ecm/tcm fuses ONLY. The large 12v center tap cable should feed a 105 amp circuit breaker next to the batteries, then the hot side of the main disconnect where the 12v lead from the vanner should also be connected. The switched side of the main disconnect should feed all other 12v loads. This configuration ensures that all 12v loads are disconnected with the exception of the ecm/tcm.
So as I was looking behind the dash at these gps devices the PO installed. The installation was very messy. It looks like some of the wires connected to the master switch was exposed and it shorted out somehow. There are some evidence of a short by some burn marks on the wire insulation. So I followed the wires to the harness and unplugged the harness. I then attempted to test the pins in the harness for voltage and didn't get a reading at all. So I have been looking at the schematics and can't seem to find a diagram that shows the master switch and what wires go on what pins.
Quote from: buswarrior on April 23, 2019, 12:27:06 PM
Did I see an new R&M fibreglass bus dashboard for sale on Facebook someplace?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
I saw it too, briefly, he wanted $300 for it. I have one myself, that I never used.
The 30 amp breakers provide power to several components and accessories, a 3 amp breaker provides power to the main switch, which in turn energizes the main relay turning everything on. Do you have a decal inside the front jbox door? The 2 breakers in question are shown as "V" and "CC" on mine, likely the same on yours.
I don't have a decal on the door. I looked at the manual schematic and checked The breaker labeld cc and I do have power. I did not check the one labeld V. I will check that tommorow. If "v" dosen't have power where would I go from there? Is there some sort of breaker behind the dash that could have shorted out to protect other circuits?
Quote from: thomasinnv on April 23, 2019, 07:37:35 PM
The 30 amp breakers provide power to several components and accessories, a 3 amp breaker provides power to the main switch, which in turn energizes the main relay turning everything on. Do you have a decal inside the front jbox door? The 2 breakers in question are shown as "V" and "CC" on mine, likely the same on yours.
Breaker V supplies power to the switch, the switch then powers the main relay. If you have no power on breaker V but there is power on the main bus bar then the breaker is faulty.
Ok, I will test that this morning. Thanks
Quote from: thomasinnv on April 23, 2019, 09:14:06 PM
Breaker V supplies power to the switch, the switch then powers the main relay. If you have no power on breaker V but there is power on the main bus bar then the breaker is faulty.
Does your book have a schematic for "Starting and Charging" or "Motor Controls"? If so, the wires for the switch, and the circuit for the relay should be shown on one, if not both of them.
First issue in my mind is these phantom GPS devices.
Get after the PO and get some Intel on the intended range of function. Does it shut down the ignition? Is there a start sequence for security purposes?
You can't mix apples and oranges. Someone has monkeyed the wiring, you need to find out what was supposed to be doing, before you try to figure out what it isn't doing.
Without the proper schematic, and then work backwards on what MCI built, and trace to where the add-ons are spliced in, and see where those wires lead to, we're all just filling the internet with typing conjecture.
Sloppy wiring in a fleet setting is not unusual....
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
I don't understand. This morning I went out to check on the bus and the left battery was at 3.5 volts. Monday I put two new batteries in and put a shut off switch on the main ground cable. With the main ground shut off how can the batter run down. Everything should be shut off if it can't find the ground, correct? also, why would the left battery be drained and not the right batter if they were connected, as they were? I am so frustrated.
The PO wasn't the fleet company. He purchased from the fleet company and has said he never opened up the dash. Looking up the devices might give me info on how it was wired. Perhaps I can find a schematic for the individual devices. That's a great idea. I will let you all know what I find.
Quote from: buswarrior on April 24, 2019, 07:45:47 AM
First issue in my mind is these phantom GPS devices.
Get after the PO and get some Intel on the intended range of function. Does it shut down the ignition? Is there a start sequence for security purposes?
You can't mix apples and oranges. Someone has monkeyed the wiring, you need to find out what was supposed to be doing, before you try to figure out what it isn't doing.
Without the proper schematic, and then work backwards on what MCI built, and trace to where the add-ons are spliced in, and see where those wires lead to, we're all just filling the internet with typing conjecture.
Sloppy wiring in a fleet setting is not unusual....
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Wasn't your Vanner still connected when you shut off that ground conductor shut-off?
I'm not sure. I thought if I disconnected the main ground that would turn everything off including the vanner. I must be wrong and something is draining the battery. The wired thing is that it only drained one battery.
Quote from: richard5933 on April 24, 2019, 09:06:35 AM
Wasn't your Vanner still connected when you shut off that ground conductor shut-off?
Quote from: Jcparmley on April 24, 2019, 09:14:36 AM
I'm not sure. I thought if I disconnected the main ground that would turn everything off including the vanner. I must be wrong and something is draining the battery. The wired thing is that it only drained one battery.
If your Vanner's 12v connection to the middle of the 24v bank is still in place, and there is a 12v load someone tied to that 12v Vanner output, my guess is that the ground on the 24v load is what drained your battery.
Why just one battery? Because the ground cable disconnect took the other one out of system, making it impossible for the Vanner to drain both equally.
Did you confirm that nothing is pulling a load from the Vanner's 12v output?
No I haven't checked the load on the vanner. How might I do that?
Quote from: richard5933 on April 24, 2019, 09:17:26 AM
If your Vanner's 12v connection to the middle of the 24v bank is still in place, and there is a 12v load someone tied to that 12v Vanner output, my guess is that the ground on the 24v load is what drained your battery.
Why just one battery? Because the ground cable disconnect took the other one out of system, making it impossible for the Vanner to drain both equally.
Did you confirm that nothing is pulling a load from the Vanner's 12v output?
Put your disconnects in the positive feeds. Stick to traditional methods...
For busnut use, ALL loads go beyond the shut off switches.
The equalizer may stay inside the shut off.
Charge each 12 volt battery separately to full charge to get this mess reversed.
Ground isn't ground when you have a centre tapped pair of 12 volt batteries making 24 volts with a Vanner battery equilizer involved.
I wonder if we could conjure up a FIRE scenario, if the correct sequence of events were followed with the coach in this configuration... power travelling "backwards" on wires not intended for the load... traditional methods cover off so many obscure failure points...
Anyway... welcome to 24 volts!
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Your Vanner worked fine.
Get rid of that ground side switch, charge batteries separately, get all the loads onto switches, leave the vanner alone.
You have better things to frustrate you, than wasting time checking an equalizer that you set up to kill a battery.
Self inflicted wound.
Back to getting this to run...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Ok, so I disconnected the two batteries from each other and am charging them up again so I can begin testing again. Your suggestion is to take off the shut off switch off the main ground and put it on the positive on each battery between the positive and the main 24/12 volt switch? Is that correct?
Quote from: buswarrior on April 24, 2019, 09:34:44 AM
Put your disconnects in the positive feeds. Stick to traditional methods...
For busnut use, ALL loads go beyond the shut off switches.
The equalizer may stay inside the shut off.
Charge each 12 volt battery separately to full charge to get this mess reversed.
Ground isn't ground when you have a centre tapped pair of 12 volt batteries making 24 volts with a Vanner battery equilizer involved.
I wonder if we could conjure up a FIRE scenario, if the correct sequence of events were followed with the coach in this configuration... power travelling "backwards" on wires not intended for the load... traditional methods cover off so many obscure failure points...
Anyway... welcome to 24 volts!
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
No
Look at it from the other side.
You have 24 volt loads, and 12 volt loads.
All the 24 goes to the coach's current shut off, and the big 24 volt battery cable goes to the other side.
The 12 volt loads are often smaller wires and attach in disorganized fashion wherever the last boob attached them, either the centre of the 2 batteries, sometimes to the vanner posts...
You typically have to establish your own collection point for all of the 12 volts stuff, switch it, and then feed the switch from the centre of the batteries. The Vanner post that connects to the centre is an acceptable place too.
The 2 batteries and the vanner stay connected together, the switches isolate everything else from that "package"
But, this is fiddling around.
The coach needs to RUN...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
I had a 40 amp Vanner. Left it connected always. I could leave my battery disconnect on while traveling. I would shut the main disconnect of for extended non-use. I changed to an 80 amp Vanner. My batteries would be dead in 12 hours. I had to disconnect the Vanner every eve when traveling. I re-installed the smaller Vanner and all is well again. So I guess I had a bad Vanner for unknown reasons.
Skihor raises an issue.
Vanner battery equalizer has a prescribed order in which to connect and disconnect the cables.
Some have ignored this, and saw no symptoms of failure.
Others have dead Vanners...
Vanner is used to protect the battery set from the imbalance of taking 12 volts out of the low side battery, and nothing from the high side. Add in charging, one battery doesn't get charged enough, the other gets charged too much...
But for the moment, we have to GET THAT COACH TO RUN...
Put a switch on the 12 volt loads, and completely disconnect the vanner until the coach is running, then we can go back and mess around...
Nobody happy without progress, this is how the support for the project falls flat...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
This has all been pretty hodge-podge, jumping back and forth all around the bus, and that's not the way to troubleshoot electrical problems. It takes a logical and systematic approach. What do you know for certain? Have you confirmed that all batteries, with the terminals disconnected from anything at all, fully charged, will stay that way overnight? If you haven't, then do that first. Next, connect your grounds. Now go get a small light bulb and connect it between the battery + post (for each one) and the cable. Does it light up? Make sure it works too by connecting it across the battery. If it lights up any at all, or if you see the slightest spark, begin there. An LED works great for this test but you have to be sure and observe correct polarity. If you're making up a test light you can solder in two LED bulbs back to back in opposite directions (usually with a resistor) and better yet make them different colors. A buzzer is often helpful.
You should confirm what you already know, the one battery that drains down lights up between the battery post and the cable. So follow that out. Where does it go next? Test that. Where does it branch? Determine which way the current is going. This is simple and you can do it easily, you just need to quit looking all around and hoping to find the problem by observation. You can't see electricity, and you usually can't see where it leaks out. Unless you get smoke.
Jim
Good point. I am charging the batteries right now independently of one another. I also switched my shut off switches on the positive sides of the battery before it goes to the master switch. Before I disconnected the battery I checked the "V" breakers in the front j box. I had no power so I believe that breaker is bad. So I bypassed the breaker with a number and sat in the drivers seat with my voltmeter to see if the master switch was getting any power. While testing my positive lead on the voltmeter touched two pins on the back of the main power switch and everything lit up and the traditional beeping low air began. So I know for sure the "V" breaker is weak. I am still trying to find what wires go to what pins on the back of the main dash switch. I have some wires that were pulled out and I am trying to figure out what pin they go to.
As far as the parasitic draw I haven't figured that out yet. I am trying to get the beast started so I can move the bus to a better place to work on it. Then I will try to figure out what is drawing the battery down.
Quote from: Jcparmley on April 24, 2019, 11:24:54 AM
While testing my positive lead on the voltmeter touched two pins on the back of the main power switch and everything lit up and the traditional beeping low air began.
Is it possible to do this safely and start the bus to move it?
I am still trying to find what wires go to what pins on the back of the main dash switch. I have some wires that were pulled out and I am trying to figure out what pin they go to.
Do these wires have MCI codes on them? If so, what circuit codes are they? If they are coded circuits, you can use those codes to replace the wires while the battery is charging.
As far as the parasitic draw I haven't figured that out yet. I am trying to get the beast started so I can move the bus to a better place to work on it. Then I will try to figure out what is drawing the battery down.
When you get to that point, I have a really detailed diagnostic chart for the equalizer.
Oooh! A diagnostic chart for an Equalizer?
Please do post that up here as an attchment!
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Quote from: buswarrior on April 24, 2019, 01:20:57 PM
Oooh! A diagnostic chart for an Equalizer?
Please do post that up here as an attchment!
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Certainly. 8)
There is a functional test and advanced diagnostic test
http://www.mcicoach.com/service-support/serinfo/mm0707.pdf
Rather than reinvent the wheel, go back to oem setup. One of my previous posts explains the proper configuration the way MCI intended it to be. ECM and TCM fuses all off the center tap, everything else (both 12 and 24 volts) runs through the main disconnect. The bus should be able to set for months without issue with only the ecm and tcm powered. If not, you have a wiring problem or a short in one of the modules.
Charge the batteries up and start fresh.
I unhooked the batteries and will let them sit overnight and see if they will keep a charge overnight. I also took out the master dash switch out of my c3 bus and installed it into the DL3. I then used a jumper to bypass they "V" breaker and the switched worked.
So that tells me that my original master switch is bad.
I also know for sure that the "v" breaker is bad, so that needs replaced.
I also compared the engine start switch on the c3 to the DL3 and noticed that the c3 starter switch has many wires connected to it but the DL3 does not. The strange thing is I don't see any loose wires that are not connected behind the switch so it must be wired differently. I will try to look through the manuals I downloaded and get a pin layout.
Furthermore, I was able to get the starter activated by bridging two of the pins on the back of the master dash switch but the engine didn't start. It just cranked but did not start. So my guess is even though I can activate the starter the fuel pump must not be activated and therefore the engine will just crank but not start.
So tonight I am going to look for the installation diagrams of the "gps" devices that were installed and see if I can put this all back together the way MCI designed it. I am still trying to figure out what wire goes on what pin on the back of the switches. There has to be a diagram somewhere that I am missing.
Also, when referring to the "center tap" what does that actually mean? Is it the cables coming off the positive side of the batteries, or is it the feed side of the battery disconnect switch? I know it's a dumb question but I just want to be sure I am understanding everything.
Quote from: Jcparmley on April 24, 2019, 03:23:04 PM
Also, when referring to the "center tap" what does that actually mean? Is it the cables coming off the positive side of the batteries, or is it the feed side of the battery disconnect switch? I know it's a dumb question but I just want to be sure I am understanding everything.
Usually refers to connecting between the two batteries in a 24v system to access 12v. Here's a manual from Vanner (may not be yours, but the diagrams are pretty much the same for most of these) - lots of wiring diagrams and a good explanation. Hopefully it will be helpful.
Quote from: Jcparmley on April 24, 2019, 03:23:04 PM
Also, when referring to the "center tap" what does that actually mean? Is it the cables coming off the positive side of the batteries, or is it the feed side of the battery disconnect switch? I know it's a dumb question but I just want to be sure I am understanding everything.
Center tap is connecting to the jumper between two 12V batteries that are wired in series in order to make 24V.
FWIW...I have attached a picture (it's my old setup) that shows a 12V wire.
I have a different configuration, but the 12 volt wire is the black wire going up the right side of the compartment. It is connected to the right battery on the post second from right.
Quote from: daddysgirl on April 24, 2019, 03:53:57 PM
FWIW...I have attached a picture (it's my old setup) that shows a 12V wire.
I have a different configuration, but the 12 volt wire is the black wire going up the right side of the compartment. It is connected to the right battery on the post second from right.
See page 5 of the manual I posted for the simplest wiring diagram for the Vanner.
FWIW, that 12v wire seems undersized for the task at hand. How many amps are you pulling 12v total?
That wire was OEM, 10 gauge that only fed front stud 55 (12 volt spare) Dad had a couple gadgets powered by that stud, but my system is a bit different now. When I'm finished, I won't need that wire.
That said... if I didn't plug the battery minder in, the left battery died fast and quiet.
Quote from: daddysgirl on April 24, 2019, 04:16:31 PM
That wire was OEM, 10 gauge that only fed front stud 55 (12 volt spare) Dad had a couple gadgets powered by that stud, but my system is a bit different now. When I'm finished, I won't need that wire.
That said... if I didn't plug the battery minder in, the left battery died fast and quiet.
Something is definitely wrong with the way the Vanner equalizer is connected then - if it's done correctly both batteries should be used equally. Having one drop like that is an indicator that either the wiring is done wrong or the Vanner has failed.
My manual shows only 2 wires connected to the master switch. One wire comes from the 3 amp breaker, the other feeds power to the solenoid which activates the main relay.
It is likely the reason you could crank but not start is becuase the ecm probably isn't getting power. Check all the ecm fuses they are in the little compartment to the right of the batteries. If all is good there, turn on the main switch and make sure you are getting power through all contacts on the main relay. In all of your messing around with the batteries and wiring it is possible you blew a ecm fuse, it doesn't take much to blow one.
Thanks Richard. I will check that out.
Quote from: richard5933 on April 24, 2019, 03:28:40 PM
Usually refers to connecting between the two batteries in a 24v system to access 12v. Here's a manual from Vanner (may not be yours, but the diagrams are pretty much the same for most of these) - lots of wiring diagrams and a good explanation. Hopefully it will be helpful.
Ok, thanks Derrick I will check the fuse tomorrow. Do you happen to have a diagram for the engine start switch?
Quote from: thomasinnv on April 24, 2019, 04:51:00 PM
My manual shows only 2 wires connected to the master switch. One wire comes from the 3 amp breaker, the other feeds power to the solenoid which activates the main relay.
It is likely the reason you could crank but not start is becuase the ecm probably isn't getting power. Check all the ecm fuses they are in the little compartment to the right of the batteries. If all is good there, turn on the main switch and make sure you are getting power through all contacts on the main relay. In all of your messing around with the batteries and wiring it is possible you blew a ecm fuse, it doesn't take much to blow one.
Quote from: richard5933 on April 24, 2019, 04:37:10 PM
Something is definitely wrong with the way the Vanner equalizer is connected then - if it's done correctly both batteries should be used equally. Having one drop like that is an indicator that either the wiring is done wrong or the Vanner has failed.
The left battery draining because of the 12 volt to stud 55 is/was a very common issue for years. I've had several long conversations with MCI techs...and even one with Luke. Sometimes, the techs would use that stud for quick fixes and they never undid the fix. The issue is most likely more wide spread with older coaches, but it happens with the later models as well.
Quote from: daddysgirl on April 24, 2019, 05:09:06 PM
The left battery draining because of the 12 volt to stud 55 is/was a very common issue for years. I've had several long conversations with MCI techs...and even one with Luke. Sometimes, the techs would use that stud for quick fixes and they never undid the fix. The issue is most likely more wide spread with older coaches, but it happens with the later models as well.
Andrea certainly knows her stuff. Much of it goes over my head, but I'm eager to learn and she always takes the time to explain it to me.
My buses electrical system is a rats nest and gives me nightmares. I'm dreading digging into it, but I know who I'll get advice off of when its time.
So this morning I checked the batteries and there was no drain overnight. So that is good. I also checked the ECM fuses and all of them looked good. So what I know for sure is:
The Batteries are good
There is power to the 24 volt Bus Bar in the front panel
There is power at the "CC" breaker
No power at the "V" breaker. When bypassing the "v" breaker I do have power at the main dash switch. So I know that breaker is bad.
The Bus will crank when I jump the pins on the back of the main dash switch but it will not turn over.
So today I need to figure out why the bus will crank but not start.
Hey Markus!
Thank you for the kind words!
JC: What engine do you have?
Do you have anti-theft devices?
Now that the batteries are back, are you getting 24 volts at the starter?
Fuses "look good"?
Nope, test them for current flow.
Looks are for barbie dolls.
Functionality is for busnuts.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Sounds good so far, persistence usually pays off.
We know the engine needs compression and fuel to run, and that's all. So the basics say you aren't getting fuel, assuming it was running before all of this started. Fuel is controlled by the engine controller. So first, make dead certain it is getting power (Is there an indicator light anywhere?)
Also make sure you have pressure on the fuel rail. I'm not a S60 mechanic so I don't know offhand how that's all arranged but the injectors have to get fuel pressure to work and being electronically controlled I'm assuming high pressure fuel is always available to them when the engine is started, so checking that pressure would be a good thing to do.
Next thing you have to deal with are various inhibitor circuits. I can't really help at all there except for the obvious ones like, "is it in gear?" But I do know that it's not unusual for a diesel engine controller to have LED indicator lights for the various inhibitor circuits and if these do that would make the whole process a lot easier. We should be so lucky, right?
Jim
I have a series 60. I am not sure if there is a theft device. What would I look for?
Quote from: daddysgirl on April 25, 2019, 07:48:07 AM
Hey Markus!
Thank you for the kind words!
JC: What engine do you have?
Do you have anti-theft devices?
Now that the batteries are back, are you getting 24 volts at the starter?
Great point. I will do that this afternoon.
Quote from: buswarrior on April 25, 2019, 08:01:11 AM
Fuses "look good"?
Nope, test them for current flow.
Looks are for barbie dolls.
Functionality is for busnuts.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
I have power at the starter because when I "bridge" the pins on the master switch on the dash the starter cranks the engine. I don't know if it's a full 24 volts. I will check that this afternoon.
Quote from: daddysgirl on April 25, 2019, 07:48:07 AM
Hey Markus!
Thank you for the kind words!
JC: What engine do you have?
Do you have anti-theft devices?
Now that the batteries are back, are you getting 24 volts at the starter?
You're getting there JC. I worry a little about your wiring methods but just always be sure you can put it back the way it was to start with and you should be mostly Ok. In the end you are likely to find out that you moved something or left something off. I'd say right now you probably need help with the interlocks more than anything else.
And did you ever track down that power drain? That showing up at the same time as not being able to start it seems like too much of a coincidence.
Jim
Quote from: Jcparmley on April 25, 2019, 08:56:34 AM
I have a series 60. I am not sure if there is a theft device. What would I look for?
Anti theft is something like turning the steplight switch on before you start. I asked about the voltage at the starter because you can have power at the battery and not get 24 volts at the starter. If you don't have enough juice at the starter, it can damage the starter solenoid.
And your coach is different than mine, but there are many posts...same problem. A lot of the time, the neutral switch on the transmission is the culprit, or the gear shift lever isn't set fully in neutral. Those are easily checked before giving yourself nightmares over the wiring. I only know because I gave myself nightmares over wiring a few years ago.
I'm with Derrick.....it sounds like the ECM is not powering on. The easiest way to tell is the CEL and SEL should light up for about 5 seconds when you turn the bus on and then shut off. If they don't light up, the ECM is not turning on.
Bob
Hi Jim
Thanks for your help. What wiring methods are you worried about? :). I don't want to do something wrong. I have not tracked down the phantom draw yet. I wanted to get the bus started and moved to a better location. Then I am planning on looking for the draw. I am also going to tape off all the exposed wires that are hanging from the upper storage bays. That way they are not touching and creating a draw.
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on April 25, 2019, 11:30:27 AM
You're getting there JC. I worry a little about your wiring methods but just always be sure you can put it back the way it was to start with and you should be mostly Ok. In the end you are likely to find out that you moved something or left something off. I'd say right now you probably need help with the interlocks more than anything else.
And did you ever track down that power drain? That showing up at the same time as not being able to start it seems like too much of a coincidence.
Jim
Hi Bob
I am not familiar with the CEL and SEL lights. Where are those located?
Quote from: wildbob24 on April 25, 2019, 03:59:46 PM
I'm with Derrick.....it sounds like the ECM is not powering on. The easiest way to tell is the CEL and SEL should light up for about 5 seconds when you turn the bus on and then shut off. If they don't light up, the ECM is not turning on.
Bob
It's nothing specific JC, but then maybe that is the problem. Electrical systems need a very organized and logical approach. You seem to bounce around quite a lot and I get the mental picture of a bunch of loose wires hanging willy-nilly in no particular order. My apologies if that isn't the case, I realize much of it comes from the DPO's add-ons and is unavoidable at the present. Actually I think you have made great progress and are probably quite near a resolution.
If I understand correctly, you did drive the thing before all this began right? So what exactly happened between then and your discovery that it wouldn't start? If you can nail that down then I think you can isolate the issue. Took the overhead bins and A/C units out right? But what else? Just doing that shouldn't ordinarily keep it from starting. Shorting out the overhead wiring might if it popped the right breaker somehow but that would be going pretty far upstream, probably past lesser breakers that should pop first. I suppose it could happen. You may find those indicator lights on one of the annunciator panels, I don't remember them but I'm still memorizing that stuff. I'll try to take a look tomorrow. Your manual should have everything that's there listed if you can look at those pages. Should be towards the front.
Jim
Hi Jim
I have not done any dismantling of this bus. The interior was all stripped by the PO. There are some wires hanging from where the over head bins were. I am nervous that those might short, or have already done so. Therefore, I am going to tape those ends and make sure they are not exposed.
Yes, I drove the bus multiple times. The PO told me that he always unhooked the large cable between the two batteries when it was parked. Before I purchased it I took the bus to a International Large Truck service center just to get a basic inspection of things like the brakes, bearings, structural issues, oil leaks, etc. Just the basic stuff. Everything checked out fine. When I went to pick the bus up it wouldn't start and the batteries, even though they the master switch was turned off the batteries were less than 20 volts.
So I took the two batteries out of my C3 bus and installed them in the new bus and it started and I drove home. When I got home I parked the bus and charged the depleted batteries over night and put them back in the bus. The next day went to start the bus and once again the batteries were run down. So I disconnected them and charged them again.
Then I wired a battery disconnect onto the main ground above the left battery hoping that when turned off it would turn off whatever phantom load was draining the battery. When I went to start the bus I got nothing from the main dash switch. That's when I opened the dash to see if a wire was loose or disconnected from the main switch.
That's when I wrote the post to get advice from you all. I have followed the steps laid out in this thread. I traced the power to the various circuits. I also took the battery disconnect from the main ground and put it on the positive going to the main disconnect in the battery bay. So other than wiring the battery disconnect I have not wired anything else.
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on April 25, 2019, 06:27:39 PM
It's nothing specific JC, but then maybe that is the problem. Electrical systems need a very organized and logical approach. You seem to bounce around quite a lot and I get the mental picture of a bunch of loose wires hanging willy-nilly in no particular order. My apologies if that isn't the case, I realize much of it comes from the DPO's add-ons and is unavoidable at the present. Actually I think you have made great progress and are probably quite near a resolution.
If I understand correctly, you did drive the thing before all this began right? So what exactly happened between then and your discovery that it wouldn't start? If you can nail that down then I think you can isolate the issue. Took the overhead bins and A/C units out right? But what else? Just doing that shouldn't ordinarily keep it from starting. Shorting out the overhead wiring might if it popped the right breaker somehow but that would be going pretty far upstream, probably past lesser breakers that should pop first. I suppose it could happen. You may find those indicator lights on one of the annunciator panels, I don't remember them but I'm still memorizing that stuff. I'll try to take a look tomorrow. Your manual should have everything that's there listed if you can look at those pages. Should be towards the front.
Jim
SEL = stop engine lite
CEL = check engine light
They are located in the left side indicator panel of the dash. Bottom row 2nd and 3rd lights from the left. To verify thier position, you should have a bulb test button located in the control panel by your left arm rest.
Got it. Yes, I will check that tommorow. Acronym's always mess me up. Good thing I don't work for the government.
Quote from: thomasinnv on April 25, 2019, 07:52:02 PM
SEL = stop engine lite
CEL = check engine light
They are located in the left side indicator panel of the dash. Bottom row 2nd and 3rd lights from the left. To verify thier position, you should have a bulb test button located in the control panel by your left arm rest.
After many years of being cheap on multimeters, I paid up some to get a nice, accurate clamping meter. It makes tracking down faults and following electrical connections really easy. Any flowing/non-flowing current is detected simply by clamping the wire. Something I should have bought many years ago but at least now in the toolbox. Actually tomorrow, going to track down where my left turn circuit is failing. :)
I say you have a short the ECM and WTEC will not kill batteries over night turn off the disconnect and make sure the alternator is not still energized
OK. Easy to get 'em mixed up now that there are several of us with these. I remember your first posts now.
So, it started and ran until it wouldn't start because the battery ran down. DPO removed the jumper between the batteries to keep that from happening. Sounds like you were unable to duplicate that because when you got to that point the engine wouldn't start. What did I miss?
If that's all there is, having the batteries at full charge should allow it to start. Since it doesn't, it stands to reason something else changed. Are the remote switches in the engine compartment set correctly? I'm not sure they can let it crank and not start, but it may be a possibility.
In fact, it seems to me that most if not all interlock circuits should keep it from cranking rather than prevent it from firing off but I can't confirm that. If so, I would definitely be looking at the fuel supply.
Jim
MUST confirm power at the ECM... all bets are off that wires are where they belong now, both dash and battery compartment.
We're going to have multiple disablement on our hands, chasing around like this...
PO removed centre cable from batteries??? That's strange, what's wrong with the stock battery switch? What he really was doing is disconnecting the 12 volt centre tap, and stopping a 12 volt parasite, at the same time as confirming no 24 could flow...
The small wires in the battery compartment have a high probability to be connected wrong....
Some of them might be grounds, some of them might be 12 volt, some of them might be 24 volt...
Prove each wire, approach the bus with no assumptions, identify the purpose of each, put where they belong...
The reason I am a huge advocate for establishing collection points for all these wires that never get disturbed by removing battery cables... stuff gets put back wrong...
I can tell you a Freightliner with a Cummins ISM in it, won't run or display the dash correctly if you reverse the positive and negative ECM leads to the battery... starter will crank, no fire... self inflicted wound... sometimes we are too smart for our own good?
If you mess with the fuel system, start a new thread...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
So neither the SEL or CEL lights turn on when I flip the master dash switch. I checked the continuity of all the ecm fuses and they all checked out as good. I think somehow the ecm isn't getting power.
Quote from: thomasinnv on April 25, 2019, 07:52:02 PM
SEL = stop engine lite
CEL = check engine light
They are located in the left side indicator panel of the dash. Bottom row 2nd and 3rd lights from the left. To verify thier position, you should have a bulb test button located in the control panel by your left arm rest.
No lights no run there is a black box with all the ground connections check there and check the box under it for power all the power supply and grounds are there in the battery box
I have been following wiring schematic and confirming power at each junction just as everyone has recommended. You are probably right in that the battery bay isn't set up correctly, the PO added battery cut off switch, etc. I'm just trying to get it back to OEM. I have determined the fuses for the ECM are good in the battery bay. What is the procedure for checking the ECM for power? Reversing the leads to the ECM is interesting. I will check those out as well. I am looking for a better guide for the OEM battery bay set up. There are many wires in the bay that arn't in the illustration in the manual.
Quote from: buswarrior on April 26, 2019, 03:21:28 AM
MUST confirm power at the ECM... all bets are off that wires are where they belong now, both dash and battery compartment.
We're going to have multiple disablement on our hands, chasing around like this...
PO removed centre cable from batteries??? That's strange, what's wrong with the stock battery switch? What he really was doing is disconnecting the 12 volt centre tap, and stopping a 12 volt parasite, at the same time as confirming no 24 could flow...
The small wires in the battery compartment have a high probability to be connected wrong....
Some of them might be grounds, some of them might be 12 volt, some of them might be 24 volt...
Prove each wire, approach the bus with no assumptions, identify the purpose of each, put where they belong...
The reason I am a huge advocate for establishing collection points for all these wires that never get disturbed by removing battery cables... stuff gets put back wrong...
I can tell you a Freightliner with a Cummins ISM in it, won't run or display the dash correctly if you reverse the positive and negative ECM leads to the battery... starter will crank, no fire... self inflicted wound... sometimes we are too smart for our own good?
If you mess with the fuel system, start a new thread...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Don't just check the fuses for continuity, check for power. Good fuses don't mean squat if they have no power. Verify you have power there and let us know. Baby steps, we'll get you there. In the meantime I'll dig out my manual and look at the ecm schematic to see what the ignition circuit looks like from the switch to the ecm.
Ok, I will check for power both at the fuse socket and through the fuse. I am trying to find the ecm schematic now. I really appreciate the help.
Quote from: thomasinnv on April 26, 2019, 08:05:14 AM
Don't just check the fuses for continuity, check for power. Good fuses don't mean squat if they have no power. Verify you have power there and let us know. Baby steps, we'll get you there. In the meantime I'll dig out my manual and look at the ecm schematic to see what the ignition circuit looks like from the switch to the ecm.
You check the power to the ECM in the rear panel I think it is terminal J and like stated check for power at fuse in the battery box when you remove the cover it has the terminal number if J is not right
I will check that terminal this afternoon. If I have power at that terminal where do I go from there? Where is the actual ECM box?
Quote from: luvrbus on April 26, 2019, 08:17:09 AM
You check the power to the ECM in the rear panel I think it is terminal J and like stated check for power at fuse in the battery box when you remove the cover it has the terminal number if J is not right
From back of bus ECM is on right side of engine, just forward and down from compressor
Where is the black box you are referring to? Also, when I flip the master dash switch and the dash is energized should I see the transmission shift panel light up?
Quote from: luvrbus on April 26, 2019, 07:54:25 AM
No lights no run there is a black box with all the ground connections check there and check the box under it for power all the power supply and grounds are there in the battery box
Quote from: Jcparmley on April 26, 2019, 08:36:47 AM
Where is the black box you are referring to? Also, when I flip the master dash switch and the dash is energized should I see the transmission shift panel light up?
Yes the pad should lite up .the ATEC and the DDEC both get power from the same source in the battery box
Ok, so neither the DDEC or the ATEC light up when the master dash switch is engaged. So I will test terminal J in the rear box. Where is the black box that I need to test for grounds?
Quote from: luvrbus on April 26, 2019, 08:42:15 AM
Yes the pad should lite up .the ATEC and the DDEC both get power from the same source in the battery box
You just have the wiring wrong from the batteries and cut off switch
These are two diagrams I have from the manual. These don't tell me much. Is there any other resource that I can use that can tell me how to wire the battery box the correct way?
Quote from: luvrbus on April 26, 2019, 08:49:04 AM
You just have the wiring wrong from the batteries and cut off switch
ECM schematic is 7L-13-1580
If you have no power to the ecm fuses (there are 3 of them) then your wiring is wrong at the batteries. If you have power there then proceed and check the following...
You already determined you have a bad breaker feeding the main switch, so either fix it or temporarily bypass for the purpose of proceeding with the testing.
With the main switch on, check for power on stud 14 in the front box. From there power goes to the rear juction box stud 24 and 25. From stud 25 to main bus bar via wire 3-BK-14, through a 6 amp breaker, then to stud 53 via wire 6-BL-16, then to the rear engine run switch and then to remote control box horizontal stud 9 then back to rear junction box stud 54. Stud 54 then feeds the ddec relay via wire 6A-BL/YL-16. The relay feeds the 12v diag ports and the ecm, and power for the indicator lamps.
Are you thoroughly confused now? To put it in simple steps, first make sure the rear start switch is set to front and the run switch (remote control box in the engine bay) is set to run and not off. Turn on the main switch and check for power on stud 14 front box. If you have power there and everything is as it should be check for power on the ddec stud 4 in front junction box.
There are 3 little black boxes above and to the right of the batteries. One is ground, 12v, and 24v. You should have 3 10 guage wires, one from each black box, they are the main feeds to the boxes from the batteries. The 12 and 24 volt wires are labelled as such. 24v goes on positive cable of right side battery, 12v goes on positive of left side battery, ground goes all the way on the left. Pop the covers open on the black boxes and check voltage to chasis ground on each one and make sure they are correct.
You drove it home and it ran so it should run again without to much trouble shooting this started when you changed batteries right ? pull all the fuses till you get power to fuse plugs and it should go
I'm with Clifford on this one. I would do what he said. Pull all the ecm/tcm fuses and correct your wiring at the batteries, verify voltages at the ecm fuse sockets, reinstall fuses and go varooom.
Be sure the batteries are hooked up in the serial giving you 24 V they won't do anything hooked up in parallel (12V)
Ok, I checked the three ECM fuses and they are all getting 12volts through the fuses. None are blown. I am getting 24 volts on stud 14 in the front panel.
I am not getting power on stud 24 or 25 in the rear panel. Nor do I have power on stud 4 in the front j box
Quote from: thomasinnv on April 26, 2019, 09:00:33 AM
ECM schematic is 7L-13-1580
If you have no power to the ecm fuses (there are 3 of them) then your wiring is wrong at the batteries. If you have power there then proceed and check the following...
You already determined you have a bad breaker feeding the main switch, so either fix it or temporarily bypass for the purpose of proceeding with the testing.
With the main switch on, check for power on stud 14 in the front box. From there power goes to the rear juction box stud 24 and 25. From stud 25 to main bus bar via wire 3-BK-14, through a 6 amp breaker, then to stud 53 via wire 6-BL-16, then to the rear engine run switch and then to remote control box horizontal stud 9 then back to rear junction box stud 54. Stud 54 then feeds the ddec relay via wire 6A-BL/YL-16. The relay feeds the 12v diag ports and the ecm, and power for the indicator lamps.
Are you thoroughly confused now? To put it in simple steps, first make sure the rear start switch is set to front and the run switch (remote control box in the engine bay) is set to run and not off. Turn on the main switch and check for power on stud 14 front box. If you have power there and everything is as it should be check for power on the ddec stud 4 in front junction box.
Not stud 4 on the main panel in front, stud 4 of the ddec panel. The ddec junction panel is mounted on the right side wall of the front electrical junction box.
I will double check the schematic but I believe it is a direct run from front stud 14 to rear stud 24 with nothing in between. Double and triple check to make sure you are testing the correct studs.
My DDEC is the J terminal in the rear box K is the engine shut down friggin MCI changes schematics like people change socks
JC what year did you say your D is?
Mine has to read that the shift pad is in neutral before anything works I ran into that when the fuse holder for the pad in the front box broke and shorted out
I have 24 volts at stud 24 and 25 in rear panel
I have 12 volts going through the DDEC 6 amp breaker
I have 24 volts at stud 53 and 54 of the rear panel
I have 12 volts at stud 4 on the front DDEC Board
Quote from: thomasinnv on April 26, 2019, 09:00:33 AM
ECM schematic is 7L-13-1580
If you have no power to the ecm fuses (there are 3 of them) then your wiring is wrong at the batteries. If you have power there then proceed and check the following...
You already determined you have a bad breaker feeding the main switch, so either fix it or temporarily bypass for the purpose of proceeding with the testing.
With the main switch on, check for power on stud 14 in the front box. From there power goes to the rear juction box stud 24 and 25. From stud 25 to main bus bar via wire 3-BK-14, through a 6 amp breaker, then to stud 53 via wire 6-BL-16, then to the rear engine run switch and then to remote control box horizontal stud 9 then back to rear junction box stud 54. Stud 54 then feeds the ddec relay via wire 6A-BL/YL-16. The relay feeds the 12v diag ports and the ecm, and power for the indicator lamps.
Are you thoroughly confused now? To put it in simple steps, first make sure the rear start switch is set to front and the run switch (remote control box in the engine bay) is set to run and not off. Turn on the main switch and check for power on stud 14 front box. If you have power there and everything is as it should be check for power on the ddec stud 4 in front junction box.
Just FYI...This is a good basic guide to work from that you can print with the more specific guide. The first few checks you've already done. There is also a number for MCI if you need it. They will walk you through further checks (like the NSS) if necessary.
http://www.mcicoach.com/fyiFromMci/maintMatters/0514.htm
EDIT: Also, if you want to check if the starter solenoid is bad, with the master switch on, put a jumper between the two large studs. This acts as a starter switch, but it might spark a bit.
Thanks
I read through that and have done all the checks. I also tested the starter solenoid and it cranks but won't turn over. It must be the ECM. However, I have checked for power at all the correct places. Very frustrating.
Quote from: daddysgirl on April 26, 2019, 11:08:00 AM
Just FYI...This is a good basic guide to work from that you can print with the more specific guide. The first few checks you've already done. There is also a number for MCI if you need it. They will walk you through further checks (like the NSS) if necessary.
http://www.mcicoach.com/fyiFromMci/maintMatters/0514.htm
EDIT: Also, if you want to check if the starter solenoid is bad, with the master switch on, put a jumper between the two large studs. This acts as a starter switch, but it might spark a bit.
Sorry Derrick
I missed the question of what year the bus is. It's a 96. The ECM is on the right side of the engine? I must be missing it.
You might have a different version of this ECM wiring diagram, but I wasn't sure. The others will tell you if it won't help.
The wiring should be pretty much the same.
https://www.wanderlodgeownersgroup.com/downloads/DDEC_III-IV/2011-10-07_013933_DDEC_II_Wiring.pdf
What's this business with the step light switch?
Jim
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on April 26, 2019, 11:58:36 AM
What's this business with the step light switch?
Jim
It's a theft deterrent. If the step light switch needs to be on or the engine won't start. ;)
You have power in all the right locations. Only thing left is to check for power at the ecm itself. Open the curbside (passenger side) engine access door and look on the side of the engone block just above the oil pan. Big metal box with wires plugged in. The big plug on the right side is what I believe you need to access. There is a bolt in the middle of the plug. You are checking for power on 3 pins and ground on I don't remember how many. Clifford could probably tell you what to do in his sleep. The ecm schematic I referenced in an earlier post shows what pins you are looking for. If you reversed the 12v positive and negative cables at the batteries in your previous steps you quite possibly fried the ecm. Too bad I'm so far from you, I have a spare ecm and programming capabilities.
Ok, let me check there.
Quote from: thomasinnv on April 26, 2019, 12:14:25 PM
You have power in all the right locations. Only thing left is to check for power at the ecm itself. Open the curbside (passenger side) engine access door and look on the side of the engone block just above the oil pan. Big metal box with wires plugged in. The big plug on the right side is what I believe you need to access. There is a bolt in the middle of the plug. You are checking for power on 3 pins and ground on I don't remember how many. Clifford could probably tell you what to do in his sleep. The ecm schematic I referenced in an earlier post shows what pins you are looking for. If you reversed the 12v positive and negative cables at the batteries in your previous steps you quite possibly fried the ecm. Too bad I'm so far from you, I have a spare ecm and programming capabilities.
Ok, I checked the harness plug for the ECM and I do have both 12 volt and 24 volts on various pins. I checked them all because I didn't have a schematic in front of me. So does that mean that the ECM is fried? I am certain I have the cables correct in the battery bay. Perhaps it shorted or something when installing the batteries. Now what do I do? Can the ECM be rebuilt?
I don't know if this matters but when I turn on the main switch in the battery bay and before I turn on the main switch on the dash I hear a faint beeping in the front J Box. I'm not sure where it's coming from but it is there. It' probably nothing.
Looks like a rebuilt ddec 4 runs about $1500
https://truckecm.com/product/detroit-diesel-ddec-iv/?gclid=Cj0KCQjw2IrmBRCJARIsAJZDdxBuVBULv0gp7uzi2F5xeF47wibH-i8xtkZJ45aJpqfYIQeEuJCHb6kaAv1tEALw_wcB
Quote from: Jcparmley on April 26, 2019, 12:45:24 PM
I don't know if this matters but when I turn on the main switch in the battery bay and before I turn on the main switch on the dash I hear a faint beeping in the front J Box. I'm not sure where it's coming from but it is there. It' probably nothing.
Is this beep a new symptom? Can you hit the battery switch on, go around and see what is beeping?
I might be the lone hold out...but I was thinking this is something simple.
Actually it probably is something but let's stay on task. JC my bus is also a '96 and may be close to yours on the production number. My VIN is 48598, you haven't said what yours is that I've seen. Anyway a few quick notes: First, on my bus it doesn't matter if the stairwell lights are on or off the bus still starts anyway. That could have been defeated or could have come that way.
I'm attaching photos of the battery bay. You should be able to blow them up large enough to compare the wiring to your own. If everything matches move on. If anything doesn't, first identify what it is and don't make changes until you are certain they are going in the right direction.
I have a photo of that big sucker above the Vanner if you need it, likewise one of the yellow remote box in the engine bay. I think only the two switches on the right can keep it from running though and they are pretty self explanatory.
Let me know what else you need.
Jim
No it's not a new symptom. I have tried to locate the beeping but have been unable. It's not loud like the one that beeps until the bus airs up. It's real faint but definitely present.
If the pos and negative were flipped wouldn't my voltmeter read -volts?
Quote from: daddysgirl on April 26, 2019, 01:08:47 PM
Is this beep a new symptom? Can you hit the battery switch on, go around and see what is beeping?
I might be the lone hold out...but I was thinking this is something simple.
Hi Jim
Can you send me the one of the back remote bloc. When I opened it today I found one lead not connected to anything. Don't know if it's anything but that could help. I looked at the schematic but couldn't find it. Thanks
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on April 26, 2019, 01:12:07 PM
Actually it probably is something but let's stay on task. JC my bus is also a '96 and may be close to yours on the production number. My VIN is 48598, you haven't said what yours is that I've seen. Anyway a few quick notes: First, on my bus it doesn't matter if the stairwell lights are on or off the bus still starts anyway. That could have been defeated or could have come that way.
I'm attaching photos of the battery bay. You should be able to blow them up large enough to compare the wiring to your own. If everything matches move on. If anything doesn't, first identify what it is and don't make changes until you are certain they are going in the right direction.
I have a photo of that big sucker above the Vanner if you need it, likewise one of the yellow remote box in the engine bay. I think only the two switches on the right can keep it from running though and they are pretty self explanatory.
Let me know what else you need.
Jim
How many of what voltage did you get at the ecm? With switch on or off? It's been a while since I have been into mine so my memory may be a little fuzzy, but I believe you should have 3 pins with voltage on them at the ecm with switch off, and one that comes alive with switch on.
Before resolving yourself to a bad ecm I would try to find someone that can plug into it in the vehicle and verify what it is or is not doing. There are a few things that are pretty simple that can keep it from starting even if all the appropriate voltages are present at the ecm. Srs and trs for starters. It's not completely beyond the realm of possibilities that something non related to your battery woe's has coincidentally happened at the same time.
Your batter bay look much more organized then mine. The PO has this entire system messed up. For one I don't have a vanner like yours. Also, next to the two black boxes in your pic I have a third black box. I had to go and pick up my girls and I'm not at the bus anymore so I don't have good pics but I will take some tommorow and post them. For now here is the pic of the third black box I have.
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on April 26, 2019, 01:12:07 PM
Actually it probably is something but let's stay on task. JC my bus is also a '96 and may be close to yours on the production number. My VIN is 48598, you haven't said what yours is that I've seen. Anyway a few quick notes: First, on my bus it doesn't matter if the stairwell lights are on or off the bus still starts anyway. That could have been defeated or could have come that way.
I'm attaching photos of the battery bay. You should be able to blow them up large enough to compare the wiring to your own. If everything matches move on. If anything doesn't, first identify what it is and don't make changes until you are certain they are going in the right direction.
I have a photo of that big sucker above the Vanner if you need it, likewise one of the yellow remote box in the engine bay. I think only the two switches on the right can keep it from running though and they are pretty self explanatory.
Let me know what else you need.
Jim
Quote from: Jcparmley on April 26, 2019, 01:22:49 PM
.
If the pos and negative were flipped wouldn't my voltmeter read -volts?
Pos and neg...batteries flipped, leads flipped,...will have different readings. I have an old school analogue meter, but I have seen circuit boards where the entire printed circuit evaporated while trying to pull the current to trip the protection breaker because someone hooked the batteries up backwards. That mistake will kill electronic equipment.
Just about every electrical item on the bus has a sticker or label to remind you about the 24 negative ground system. IMHO...It's one of the top three most important things to remember, that I am confident you will not soon forget. You'll be the electrical wizard when you're finished with this project.
I'm no longer at the bus but when I tested the harness going into the ECM the main dash switch was on. I will need to go back and test the pins again. I need to find in the manual a pin layout.
I was thinking the same thing as far as having someone come out and test the ECM.
I think I need to make sure the battery bay is back to the original MCI set up and then proceed from there. The PO wired this battery bay differently than what's in the manual. Do you happen to have some pics of your battery bay like Jim sent?
Quote from: thomasinnv on April 26, 2019, 01:38:25 PM
How many of what voltage did you get at the ecm? With switch on or off? It's been a while since I have been into mine so my memory may be a little fuzzy, but I believe you should have 3 pins with voltage on them at the ecm with switch off, and one that comes alive with switch on.
Before resolving yourself to a bad ecm I would try to find someone that can plug into it in the vehicle and verify what it is or is not doing. There are a few things that are pretty simple that can keep it from starting even if all the appropriate voltages are present at the ecm. Srs and trs for starters. It's not completely beyond the realm of possibilities that something non related to your battery woe's has coincidentally happened at the same time.
That box is a 50 amp manual reset circuit breaker. Do you know what it is protecting? Anyone have one like it?
I have no idea what it it's protecting.
Quote from: daddysgirl on April 26, 2019, 02:16:54 PM
That box is a 50 amp manual reset circuit breaker. Do you know what it is protecting? Anyone have one like it?
We used those heavy manually resetting circuit breakers in Big Transit to protect the wheelchair lift.
Got one/had one?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
I hope this is what you asked for. I'd be happy to post anything you'd like to see as long as I know what I'm trying to get a shot of.
First time I've had the cover off that panel. Guess that's a good thing.
Jim
Nice looking junction box. They don't change much.
JC do you have a wheelchair lift?
Hi Jim
Can you get a pic of the back of the switches in that rear j box. I have a wire hanging that belongs on the back of one of those switches.
Thanks for all the help guys and gals.
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on April 26, 2019, 03:51:09 PM
I hope this is what you asked for. I'd be happy to post anything you'd like to see as long as I know what I'm trying to get a shot of.
First time I've had the cover off that panel. Guess that's a good thing.
Jim
The 50 amp breaker in question is for the wheel chair lift
Back of the switches? Hmm... It has a toggle switch on the left side with a red cover but I don't remember seeing other switches. I'll take another look. You aren't referring to the yellow remote panel by any chance are you?
Definitely with a lift you'd have more wiring. Was that the part that you removed? I thought there was something. I'm pretty sure you'll find some sort of interlocks with that wheelchair lift. If there is anything Corps are scared of it's a disabled person. Big faucet that's hard to turn off. Really good chance that's where you will find your answer, some lift related wiring that lost continuity in the removal process.
Jim
Lift interlock does not disable starting of the engine, it just doesn't let you release the parking brake. Ask me how I learned that one? Lol
If he has power on stud 4 of the ddec junction block then he should have ignition power to the ecm. Thats the same circuit that also applies power to the diag ports.
JC you need to find a pinout for the ecm and check for ignition power. I would find it for you but I'm on my way out the door. I know I have it around here somewhere.
Here's a shot of the only thing in that panel that really looks anything like switches, I expect they are circuit breakers. Hopefully that's what you are looking for. If not, try to give me very specific directions for what you want photos of and I'll try to get them. The hard part is understanding what needs to be in the picture.
Jim
Hi Jim
Yes, I am referring to the yellow remote panel by the engine. Sorry, I guess I was't clear. The lift is still in the bus, I haven't touched it yet. In fact I haven't even tried to see if it works. I'm not sure if I want to get rid of it yet.
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on April 27, 2019, 07:16:23 AM
Back of the switches? Hmm... It has a toggle switch on the left side with a red cover but I don't remember seeing other switches. I'll take another look. You aren't referring to the yellow remote panel by any chance are you?
Definitely with a lift you'd have more wiring. Was that the part that you removed? I thought there was something. I'm pretty sure you'll find some sort of interlocks with that wheelchair lift. If there is anything Corps are scared of it's a disabled person. Big faucet that's hard to turn off. Really good chance that's where you will find your answer, some lift related wiring that lost continuity in the removal process.
Jim
Ok, thanks Derrick. I will look for the pin out of the ECM.
Quote from: thomasinnv on April 27, 2019, 07:19:54 AM
L/ift interlock does not disable starting of the engine, it just doesn't let you release the parking brake. Ask me how I learned that one? Lol
If he has power on stud 4 of the ddec junction block then he should have ignition power to the ecm. Thats the same circuit that also applies power to the diag ports.
JC you need to find a pinout for the ecm and check for ignition power. I would find it for you but I'm on my way out the door. I know I have it around here somewhere.
Thanks Jim
On the front cover of the rear remote panel are some toggle switches. When you open the panel you can see the various wires going to those toggle switches. One of my wires is disconnected and belongs on one of those toggles. I want a pic of the back of your toggles switches so I can compare mine to yours. Perhaps that hanging wire is important. I don't know unless I try to connect. I really appreciate all the help
Jared
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on April 27, 2019, 08:01:10 AM
Here's a shot of the only thing in that panel that really looks anything like switches, I expect they are circuit breakers. Hopefully that's what you are looking for. If not, try to give me very specific directions for what you want photos of and I'll try to get them. The hard part is understanding what needs to be in the picture.
Jim
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on April 27, 2019, 08:01:10 AM
Here's a shot of the only thing in that panel that really looks anything like switches, I expect they are circuit breakers. Hopefully that's what you are looking for. If not, try to give me very specific directions for what you want photos of and I'll try to get them. The hard part is understanding what needs to be in the picture.
Jim
Those are the rear j box breakers and buss bars. Someone re-organized your rear box, but the bus specific components should still be the same...also for JC...although he might still have the wires underneath of the stud plate.
JC, quick question. Have you wired the battery bay back the way it was when you picked it up?
I only ask because if the PO did anything, and you put it all back to OEM, it might make the problem worse.
Quote from: Jcparmley on April 27, 2019, 08:20:33 AM
Thanks Jim
On the front cover of the rear remote panel are some toggle switches. When you open the panel you can see the various wires going to those toggle switches. One of my wires is disconnected and belongs on one of those toggles. I want a pic of the back of your toggles switches so I can compare mine to yours. Perhaps that hanging wire is important. I don't know unless I try to connect. I really appreciate all the help
Jared
Those switches are for the rear start and so forth. what position are they in?
Does the wire your trying to place have a code on it? Was it connected when you picked up the bus?
Ok, I found a pin out of the ECM and am going over to the shop to test for power. Now you mentioned that some should have power when the switch is off. What switch are we referring to? I am assuming it's the master dash switch. So I will test each pin with the master dash switch off but the batter disconnect switch in the battery bay on. Then I will turn on the master switch on the dash on and check for power in the ignition wire. Am I missing anything?
Quote from: thomasinnv on April 26, 2019, 01:38:25 PM
How many of what voltage did you get at the ecm? With switch on or off? It's been a while since I have been into mine so my memory may be a little fuzzy, but I believe you should have 3 pins with voltage on them at the ecm with switch off, and one that comes alive with switch on.
Before resolving yourself to a bad ecm I would try to find someone that can plug into it in the vehicle and verify what it is or is not doing. There are a few things that are pretty simple that can keep it from starting even if all the appropriate voltages are present at the ecm. Srs and trs for starters. It's not completely beyond the realm of possibilities that something non related to your battery woe's has coincidentally happened at the same time.
I have power on these wires
A2. Digital Output
B1. Check Engine Light
B3 Ignition
C1. Data Link Minus
C2. Data Link Plus
E2 Vehicle Speed Plus
G2. Digital Input
H3. Coolant Level
J2. Digital Input
I wasn't able to turn on the master switch on the dash because I left the door key back home and we are in the middle of a freak snow storm. I will redo the test tomorrow.
Try these:
Jim
i'm at the bus now. I redid the test on the ecm harness. With the power on but the master dash switch off I have power on:
A2. Digital Output
B1. Check Engine Light
B3 Ignition
C1. Data Link Minus
C2. Data Link Plus
E2 Vehicle Speed Plus
G2. Digital Input
H3. Coolant Level
J2. Digital Input
I have 12 volts on all except H3 where I have 6.7 volts.
When I turn on the master switch on the dash I get the exact same readings as I do with the master switch off.
I have not wired the batter box the way the PO had it wired. Should I do that?
The hanging wire in the rear remote control box has a 10p label on it
The ECM diagnostic socket has no power.
also, the beeping I hear faintly from the front JBox is this beeper:
Mine beeps until the air pressure comes up, don't know if it is the same beeper but I can check.
Jim
Code 10 should be a low water level sensor. That might explain why the voltage is low on that pin...maybe it caused a prior issue. Was it connected when you brought it home?
And IMHO...
I would put the batteries back the way they were when you got it. Reason being, we know the bus will run with that configuration. Get it to run, drive it where you need it to be, then begin the circuit by circuit analysis.
Just my 2 cents.
Check the voltage at cavity A the orange wire when the CE lights up it will run
Ok, so I wired the battery compartment the way it was when I purchased it with the disconnects. Once I did that I was able to activate the dash master switch and I was able to see the Trans console light up. That's a good sign.
Of course whatever was draining my battery when I purchased it will need to be found but for now I am just happy to have power to the computers. Anyhow, my engine start switch is either bad or not wired up correctly. So I looked at the engine start switch on my C3 bus and it has 4 wires connected. Two white, a red and black and a brown wire. I believe the brown wire is supposed to come off the 14 stud in front J box. I looked all over behind the dash and I am unable to find the brown wire. Perhaps the switch is supposed to be wired differently than the C3 start switch.
So I wend and plugged the ECM back into the harness and started the bus jumping the two main terminals of the starter solenoid. Low and behold the bus strarted right up. Yah! The ECM isn't fried.
Now I just need to figure out how the start switch is wired and then trace where the battery draw is coming from. Does anyone know which wires go to which pins on the start switch? Thank you all so very much for your help. I appreciate it very much.
I'm not sure if it was connected when I brought it home. I found it hanging there when I opened the panel. Do you know where it goes? It has a screw on the end so it must go to a terminal somewhere. Thanks Andrea for your suggestion of going back the the wiring the PO had. When I did that I was able to start the bus. I really appreciate the help. Do you happen to know how the start switch on the dash is wired?
Quote from: daddysgirl on April 28, 2019, 03:27:25 PM
Code 10 should be a low water level sensor. That might explain why the voltage is low on that pin...maybe it caused a prior issue. Was it connected when you brought it home?
YES!!!!!!!
You're a electrical nut now.
EDIT: You're more than welcome...that's what we're here for. Someone had to walk me through the same process a few years ago. Without this board, i would have lost my mind. So glad it started.
Let me look. Should be 2 or 3 wire codes, but I have a wonderful old school button. The wire codes should be the same.
The following is what I have. BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING...TAKE PICTURES OF EVERY WIRE BEFORE YOU MOVE IT ;D Remember...you drove it home.
EDIT:
My schematic has 2 red code 29 wires on it. One of them goes from FRONT STUD #4 to the button; the other goes from the other side of the button to the MIDDLE pin on the master start switch, OVER black wire #3.
Wire id 3 goes from STUD #14 to the right side of the master switch, then to a 30 amp breaker in the FRONT junction box.
So, MASTER SWITCH: one wire id 3 on one side...2 wires id 3 and id 29 on the other. But this stuff is getting familiar to you now.
Can you post your "Charging and Starting" diagram?
START BUTTON: 2 wires, both id 29. One getting power from stud 4, the other moving on to the master switch.
Question about the code 10 wire: But save the question for when you work on that circuit...just grab the screw. Do not loose those.
Was that hanging in the rear junction box, just behind the rear most axle on the driver side, or the remote junction box at the rear of the engine all the way in the back? I'm hoping you're gonna say big rear J box.
JC, I'm attaching photos of the back and front of my main power and start switches. Hopefully that will help.
That beeper is indeed the Low Air Pressure beeper. Mine is very loud though, I may have to put some tape across it to tone it down a little. Very annoying (and yes I realize it is supposed to be).
If you have 12v on the pin for the CEL I'm guessing the ECM grounds it to turn on the light. Probably the same with the SEL I'd guess but where does that even go? Doesn't seem to match any of the pins you listed.
Did you not find a wire to match up with that 10p wire in the photos I sent earlier? I could probably pull the cover again and look for it if your remote box looks the same as mine.
Jim
It's hanging in the remote start junction box all the way in the back. It's the one where you can flip the toggle and start the engine from the back.
Do you want a pic of the way I have the batteries now or the way MCI says it should be run? Thanks
Quote from: daddysgirl on April 28, 2019, 04:20:41 PM
Question about the code 10 wire: But save the question for when you work on that circuit...just grab the screw. Do not loose those.
Was that hanging in the rear junction box, just behind the rear most axle on the driver side, or the remote junction box at the rear of the engine all the way in the back? I'm hoping you're gonna say big rear J box.
Hi Jim
I will compare your pic of the rear remote box with what I have. I believe comparing what I have with your pic should tell me where that 10p wire goes.
In regards to the pic of the start switch. Where does the red/black wire connect? And where does the brown wire connect to? Those are the two that I am missing. Strange because that switch worked a week ago. I can't seem to find that brown wire anywhere.
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on April 28, 2019, 04:25:20 PM
JC, I'm attaching photos of the back and front of my main power and start switches. Hopefully that will help.
That beeper is indeed the Low Air Pressure beeper. Mine is very loud though, I may have to put some tape across it to tone it down a little. Very annoying (and yes I realize it is supposed to be).
If you have 12v on the pin for the CEL I'm guessing the ECM grounds it to turn on the light. Probably the same with the SEL I'd guess but where does that even go? Doesn't seem to match any of the pins you listed.
Did you not find a wire to match up with that 10p wire in the photos I sent earlier? I could probably pull the cover again and look for it if your remote box looks the same as mine.
Jim
Quote from: Jcparmley on April 28, 2019, 04:44:24 PM
It's hanging in the remote start junction box all the way in the back. It's the one where you can flip the toggle and start the engine from the back.
Do you want a pic of the way I have the batteries now or the way MCI says it should be run? Thanks
The schematic of the entire circuit (MCI) should be more clear, but it will show you the switches also. If you have a pic of the battery bay now, if you post it you'll never loose it.
But did you take one of those switches off your other bus last week? If so, are they the same switch?
ALSO...if you look at the breakers in the remote J box, look to see if one of the terminals is cleaner than the rest...you might get lucky and be able to see where the screw came loose. There aren't that many screws in that box.
I took the master dash switch off my other bus and that is working. I havn't taken the engine start switch off the other bus yet. My hope is when I find the correct wire it will work. My only day off is on Monday so I hope I can get this all working correctly tommorow. I will take pics of my battery bay tommorow and post it. Perhaps you all can diagnose the problem right away. The hint that perhaps the terminal where the 10p wire goes may look less corroded is a great hint. This is still all new to me.
Once this is figured out I will try to figure out why I have no fast idle or cruise control. Perhaps it's all related. Are you all still up for helping me get this right? You have been a great help already. I hope my problems and questions arn't burning you all out.
Why, you don't have any abandonment issues do you?
Just for you, I went out and took a gander at those wires again. The red and the brown both run down to the big multi-pin connector. Didn't get the pin numbers or where they go from there 'cause it's dark, but they should be in that bundle somewhere.
Jim
lol running before I worked on it so I screwed something up happens to all of us
Quote from: luvrbus on April 28, 2019, 07:13:38 PM
lol running before I worked on it so I screwed something up happens to all of us
Oh yes, it surely does.
I was thinking...(dangerous I know) that it might be beneficial for future reference to start a new thread for finding and fixing the parasitic drain? Bus start one topic...hunting another? Just a thought
The PO totally chopped up the switch wiring. For one thing I can't find the brown 29p wire that is supposed to be on the starter switch. I can see the wire on the 4 post in the front j box but can not find it behind the dash. Also, the PO has a red wire attached to the black 3r wire that is supposed to be on the master dash switch. I also have a green 4 wire that I thought was supposed to go to the master dash switch on the post above the black 3 wire, but Andrea said on her switch she has the red/black 29 wire going to that post. So I am not sure how this is supposed to be wired. Here is a pic
Quote from: daddysgirl on April 28, 2019, 03:53:39 PM
Let me look. Should be 2 or 3 wire codes, but I have a wonderful old school button. The wire codes should be the same.
The following is what I have. BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING...TAKE PICTURES OF EVERY WIRE BEFORE YOU MOVE IT ;D Remember...you drove it home.
EDIT:
My schematic has 2 red code 29 wires on it. One of them goes from FRONT STUD #4 to the button; the other goes from the other side of the button to the MIDDLE pin on the master start switch, OVER black wire #3.
Wire id 3 goes from STUD #14 to the right side of the master switch, then to a 30 amp breaker in the FRONT junction box.
So, MASTER SWITCH: one wire id 3 on one side...2 wires id 3 and id 29 on the other. But this stuff is getting familiar to you now.
Can you post your "Charging and Starting" diagram?
START BUTTON: 2 wires, both id 29. One getting power from stud 4, the other moving on to the master switch.
Yes, good idea. I will start a new thread when I begin looking for the drain.
Quote from: daddysgirl on April 29, 2019, 04:38:36 AM
Oh yes, it surely does.
I was thinking...(dangerous I know) that it might be beneficial for future reference to start a new thread for finding and fixing the parasitic drain? Bus start one topic...hunting another? Just a thought
Here is my diagram I am trying to work off of. I believe the problem is I don't have or can't find the brown 29p wire. Here is a pic of the type of wiring the PO did. Ridiculous
Quote from: daddysgirl on April 28, 2019, 03:53:39 PM
Let me look. Should be 2 or 3 wire codes, but I have a wonderful old school button. The wire codes should be the same.
The following is what I have. BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING...TAKE PICTURES OF EVERY WIRE BEFORE YOU MOVE IT ;D Remember...you drove it home.
EDIT:
My schematic has 2 red code 29 wires on it. One of them goes from FRONT STUD #4 to the button; the other goes from the other side of the button to the MIDDLE pin on the master start switch, OVER black wire #3.
Wire id 3 goes from STUD #14 to the right side of the master switch, then to a 30 amp breaker in the FRONT junction box.
So, MASTER SWITCH: one wire id 3 on one side...2 wires id 3 and id 29 on the other. But this stuff is getting familiar to you now.
Can you post your "Charging and Starting" diagram?
START BUTTON: 2 wires, both id 29. One getting power from stud 4, the other moving on to the master switch.
These schematics... are they EXACTLY the correct ones for your EXACT coach?
Just checking... the revisions and updates to certain circuits, there are a lot of schematics of the same things, but apply to different unit numbers/VINS.
You must use the correct one, or into the mud we shall go!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
OK.
This might sound strange, but it saved my butt a couple of times.
Code 29 is the start circuit throughout the bus. Go to the junction box,take a picture before you do anything...then... locate wire 29 on stud #4. Remove the little nut remove the wire and GENTLY tug on it while looking at that harness through the drivers window. When you see a wire move, you've got it. It might be spliced to one of the wires in the picture.
Do the same for the wires on stud 14.
When you find individual wires, write down what stud they are on as well as what color they are at the switch.
Do you have to turn on your step light to start the bus?
MCI said these are the closest to my coach as they have.
Quote from: buswarrior on April 29, 2019, 12:02:50 PM
These schematics... are they EXACTLY the correct ones for your EXACT coach?
Just checking... the revisions and updates to certain circuits, there are a lot of schematics of the same things, but apply to different unit numbers/VINS.
You must use the correct one, or into the mud we shall go!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Holy $#!%. (sorry, but no other word works)
I just noticed the pic of the wires behind the dash.
If you're going to undo all of that, you are going to need someone there with you. That's a two person adventure.
EDIT: Actually, it looks to me like each one of those bundles might be a mini harness for the individual switches. If that's the case, it's not so bad at all, and you shouldn't need to mess with them other than to ID the little groups of wires.
I tried to follow the wires but they were all in cased in black wrap and sent to the dash. Ai have been unable to find it in the dash once it was wrapped in the black wire wrap. The PO spliced in two wires on the green #4 wire and on the Black #3R wire. The splices weren't attached to anything. I took a pic of these wires.
Couldn't I just attach another wire on the 14 stud and run it up to the switch? Or run wire directly from the starter solenoid to the switch and bypass whatever the PO did?
Quote from: daddysgirl on April 29, 2019, 12:05:56 PM
OK.
This might sound strange, but it saved my butt a couple of times.
Code 29 is the start circuit throughout the bus. Go to the junction box,take a picture before you do anything...then... locate wire 29 on stud #4. Remove the little nut remove the wire and GENTLY tug on it while looking at that harness through the drivers window. When you see a wire move, you've got it. It might be spliced to one of the wires in the picture.
Do the same for the wires on stud 14.
When you find individual wires, write down what stud they are on as well as what color they are at the switch.
Do you have to turn on your step light to start the bus?
Quote from: Jcparmley on April 29, 2019, 12:21:09 PM
MCI said these are the closest to my coach as they have.
For some reason, I can't get the diagram clear enough to see the wire ID's...is there a way I can make it more clear?
Is this better.
Quote from: daddysgirl on April 29, 2019, 01:08:10 PM
For some reason, I can't get the diagram clear enough to see the wire ID's...is there a way I can make it more clear?
Yes, much better. Let's see what it says...
I think it will be easiest to understand if we have a system to number the pin positions. For example: The Master Switch top to bottom.. Left side L1, L2 etc...right side R1, R2 etc..does that make sense to you looking at everything actually?
Ok, so I don't know how this works but I figured out how the PO had this wired and it works. However, it is not the way the schematic says it should be wired. In the picture the black #3 wire is also connected to a "jumper" wire that is red. You can see this in the first picture. That "jumper" wire I connected to the post on the start switch that is above the red/black #29 wire. This post is where the brown #29p should be. The green #4 wire is on the post above the #3 black wire. Some how this works.
I have to admit the wiring schematics are hard to read for me. I need to find a online tutorial that can help me understand the symbols and direction of current.
Quote from: daddysgirl on April 29, 2019, 01:59:00 PM
I think it will be easiest to understand if we have a system to number the pin positions. For example: The Master Switch top to bottom.. Left side L1, L2 etc...right side R1, R2 etc..does that make sense to you looking at everything actually?
If it works, leave it alone for now. As you move along with renovations you might need to understand how he did something and you won't if you switch the wires.
Once it's back together, check that breaker again...and keep an eye on the batteries charge. Record each bank separately for a few days.
EDIT: Somewhere in chapter 7 there is a list of all the symbols and number sequences. I'll help explain it if you ever need me to, but I'll have you call me. ;D
For now, don't reinvent the wheel and go running new wires. That will complicate things further when you are trying to simplify and get back to standard wiring.
Overall I don't think your wiring looks bad. There's just a lot of it which makes it intimidating. I'll go out in a few and track down those brown and red wires for you, it's been a hard day and I need to rest a bit first.
You have 3 wires in a black sheath, green, red and black. Almost looks like an extension cord. Almost I said. Anyway that appears to be new and different and the question you should be asking is, "Why?" Why would someone want that in the start circuit? You can bet there was a reason. So start by trying to see where that wire goes. Is it unique in appearance? Does that black jacket have any markings or is it otherwise distinguishable from all the other wire bundles in your bus? Find out where it goes and you will be much closer to knowing why it is there. Then you can determine if it is working as it was intended to, if it is something you want to keep, and how it should be connected to the switch.
Jim
OK JC, the brown wire is: 29P BR and it goes to pin 23 in the big brown connector.
The red wire is: 29 RDBK and goes to pin 11 in the same big brown connector.
The wires are very clearly marked so I would have to think that they could be found somewhere in that side panel.
Jim
Thank you so much Jim. You all have been great. I will look for those wires tomorrow. I'm just glad I got it started and the ECM is't fried.
I have another question that perhaps you all can answer. Why would my cruise control on the bus only set to 58 MPH? I was going 65 or 70 MPH but the cruise wouldn't set that high. Do you think the computer is set for 58 mph max? Is there a way to change that?
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on April 29, 2019, 04:35:40 PM
OK JC, the brown wire is: 29P BR and it goes to pin 23 in the big brown connector.
The red wire is: 29 RDBK and goes to pin 11 in the same big brown connector.
The wires are very clearly marked so I would have to think that they could be found somewhere in that side panel.
Jim
You set the cruise for the desired speed through the ECM the former owner set it for fuel mileage and torque plus idiot drivers that is a easy change mine is set for 68 mph flip the switch and off you go to 68 mph.I changed all the switches and panels on my DL3 and it was the easiest wiring job I ever did on a bus the way it was arranged
So I assume you bring the bus to a Detroit dealer and have them set the cruise value? What switches did you use? I would love to see a pic of your switch panel.
Quote from: luvrbus on April 29, 2019, 06:43:57 PM
You set the cruise for the desired speed through the ECM the former owner set it for fuel mileage and torque plus idiot drivers that is a easy change mine is set for 68 mph flip the switch and off you go to 68 mph.I changed all the switches and panels on my DL3 and it was the easiest wiring job I ever did on a bus the way it was arranged
I went back all original no changes except I added the clock and tach that wasn't there
Do you mean to say that you can't just set the cruise speed while you are driving? That just seems... wrong.
Jim
You can set the cruise just like a automobile I just have mine preset for 68 mph and his probably preset for 58 mph the cruise on a bus are just good on the open interstate IMO anyways
Quote from: Jcparmley on April 29, 2019, 12:21:09 PM
MCI said these are the closest to my coach as they have.
Close??? You've been fed a line.
The schematics are assigned specifically according to unit number/serial number/VIN, depending on vintage. As changes were made on the line, the specific coach in which the change starts is noted on the schematic, thru to the last one.
Or via an index and figure number in the book.
There's no "close" about it.
It either is, or it isn't.
Has the world of MCI gone mad?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
I called MCI Parts and asked them what schematics were available for my model. I gave them my VIN and they said the schematics I downloaded are the only ones they had. They did not have any for my year. I have a 1996 and the shematics I have are for a 1997 -2003. Are you suggesting that MCI dosen't know what schematics are available?
Quote from: buswarrior on April 30, 2019, 08:17:57 AM
Close??? You've been fed a line.
The schematics are assigned specifically according to unit number/serial number/VIN, depending on vintage. As changes were made on the line, the specific coach in which the change starts is noted on the schematic, thru to the last one.
Or via an index and figure number in the book.
There's no "close" about it.
It either is, or it isn't.
Has the world of MCI gone mad?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
If MCI was anything like GM, there also were all the special orders and customer-specific options that never made it into the books. The GM wiring diagram books are pretty darn complete, but there are still many sections for my bus which are inaccurate.
I've asked Luke about this, and he said that changes were made on the production line that never made it to the books, and that certain buses were built to customer specs in ways not reflected in the books.
For my bus, I've had to pull wiring diagrams from other 'close' models/years to get a complete picture of the actual wiring.
MCI is feeding you BS my manual has 28 pages of schematics from 1993 to 1996 and early 1997 models (April),they had 3 options on engines and transmissions they have to have more schematics
So you have the pages for '96 then? I'd gladly pay you to make copies and send them to me.
Jim
If I could figure out the scanning deal I could send them in a file
I would love a copy of those as well.
Quote from: luvrbus on April 30, 2019, 11:38:46 AM
If I could figure out the scanning deal I could send them in a file
Either way would be enormously better than the half-sheets I have in the manual from MCI. Probably half the wiring is missing. Kinda pointless to even look at it.
So yes, any thing I can do to persuade you to do this, and in the least bothersome way for you that is possible. Scanned digital, drop the book off at Kinko's with instructions, whatever you'd be willing to do. It'd be great to be able to follow along in the schematics when someone says, "look at thus and such wire."
Jim
We don't even have a office supply where I live it would need to be scanned it's 100 miles to Vegas to a Office Depot
Quote from: luvrbus on April 30, 2019, 07:40:43 PM
We don't even have a office supply where I live it would need to be scanned it's 100 miles to Vegas to a Office Depot
If you have a smartphone, you can get a pretty decent scan using Microsoft's Office Lens app. It's free and does a pretty good job if you have proper lighting. I've been using it for lots of things and mostly you can't tell it wasn't done on a scanner.