I noticed a bit of oil on my bogie hub and pulled the plug and it was a bit low. I crawled under the coach and the inner seal is failing and it slung a bit of oil on the brake drum. How hard is this to remove and change? Do I have to remove the brake assembly? Is my drum and brake shoes ruined? I have the manual with pictures attached below.
It would be wise to replace the bearings, race and seals while this thing is apart.
Where would I get the parts??
David
Here are the diagrams of the brake assembly
You can remove drum and hub and clean drum with a parts cleaning brush and solvent. The shoes can be left in place and cleaned with shoes in place. Clean thoroughly, paying particular attention to the rivet/ bolt holes. I've used a small flat head screwdriver with a rag to remove any the brush missed. Do springs and other hardware also. A can or two of aerosol brake clean after finish with the solvent helps with missed or inexcessible areas. On ours, after done, I heated the brake surface some to sweat remaining oil out of the lining. Did it two or three times and wiped residue off after each heating. Dont go crazy with the heat two or three bundred degrees at most.
With the relatively cheap cost of relining the brakes, I wouldn't goof with trying to clean oil soaked brakes. I would replace both sides with new. If one side is leaking, you can bet the other side is close to ready also. Good Luck, TomC
Yes you can, but what if you bugger the seal the first time or the hub seal surface is bad. Do you replace the lining each time? It also depends on how worn or cracked the lining and drum or drums are. His call.
David the bearings and seal are off the shelf a truck supply or bearing supply will have those even Napa can order for you,if the lining is in good shape I use lacquer thinner and heat to clean the shoes with a light sanding to remove the glaze
Quote from: luvrbus on March 05, 2019, 06:49:56 PM
David the bearings and seal are off the shelf a truck supply or bearing supply will have those even Napa can order for you,if the lining is in good shape I use lacquer thinner and heat to clean the shoes with a light sanding to remove the glaze
Anyone have the part numbers for the bearings, bearing cone, and seal? I'll have to replace the hub cap seal, too.
The bearing numbers are stamped into the cup and cone. You can do a thorough inspection of the bearings before condemning them. A seal leak does not necessarily mean a bearing failure and those bearings are design and built to last. Post up pictures of the linings and drum when you get it apart. I am in the camp that if the lining is contaminated, just change it but that is just me.
When you examine the bearings, clean thoroughly and shine a bright flashlight or equivalent so you can see the surface the rollers ride against in their cage. Sometimes rollers and bearings look good but roller surface has pits and bad surface, so check them close. They may make an equivalent to that seal that is designed to have the sealing surface inside itself in the seal instead of the normal hub seal surface. Scotseal used to offer this, although there are probably more now. Be sure to use flat piece of board or similiar or proper seal installer. It can be easy do damage new seal installing it if you don't have some experience doing it. Denting one side of seal installing it will surely cause leakage again.
Ok, I finally got the time to do this. I had a 300 mile trip I had to make and now have no more trips till May. Wow, I'm glad I found this because I filled the hub before the trip and when I removed the hub it only had about 4 oz of oil in it. The seal really failed.
Anyway it was really easy to get this apart. (Youtube has been my friend) I cleaned everything up and have 16.5" of wheel drum diameter, 16.8" is stamped on the drum so ok there. Very few hairlined cracks showing. I have 3/8" brake pad on the shoe. I am going to clean with lacquer thinner and see how much oil I wick out of the shoes and drum. I still need to get the inner bearing and races out, which I will attempt this afternoon. I was able to remove the locknuts with pliers, but will purchase a socket to reinstall. It requires 200lbs preload torque, then back off to hand tight only. I have a concern about the outer seal shroud mounted to the axle. It is not perfectly round, but has a dent or two on it. Not sure if you can see it in the picture, but zoom into picture #11 and you may be able to see it. I can probably straighten it all out, but not sure how it got the dings in it. It may not matter. It looks mainly like a dust shield for the oil seal.
Opinions and ideas are welcome
David
more pics
more after some cleaning
Brake lining is porous, like a sponge.
The amount of oil that has soaked into the lining is the concern. It migrates back out during brake use, reducing the friction at that wheel end.
Tough decision, depending on whether it got a splash or was soaked...
Soaked? Definitely change them.
Less than that? Tough call...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
My thoughts, FWIW, the wheel and drum are already off, the cost of a replacement set of brake shoes is not going to break the bank.
The amount of brake cam travel on the rollers is also a bit of a worry. How much did you back the brakes off to pull the wheel? The combination of worn linings and a worn brake drum could lead to a condition known as "over-camming". That's when the brake cam S head rotates past the rollers on the brake shoes. Kinda hard to tell from pictures but ...
When that happens, at a minimum, you lose all braking in that wheel. At worst, loose parts roll around and pile up.
If you are to replace the seal and brake shoes properly now, it is unlikely you will ever have to pull that wheel for servicing during your ownership of that bus.
I've heated the lining a few times with a propane torch. It causes the lining to sweat out the grease.Then wipe and spray with lacquer thinner or brake clean. Repeat a couple of times. Bearings packed with synthetic grease don't leak all over the lining and drum like the oil does. Just sayin...
Quote from: chessie4905 on March 25, 2019, 04:25:43 PM
I've heated the lining a few times with a propane torch. It causes the lining to sweat out the grease.Then wipe and spray with lacquer thinner or brake clean. Repeat a couple of times. Bearings packed with synthetic grease don't leak all over the lining and drum like the oil does. Just sayin...
The lining is pretty much soaked, so it looks like new shoes for both sides to keep them matched. I was wondering about grease packing. That would eliminate oil leaks. Is that ok to do on these wheels? I agree with TomC that both sides should have new seals as they look original. I'm going to pull the other side an replace the seal while I'm doing this. I've seen posts before about switching to grease. Give me the details the best way to do that.
Also, the dinged up dust shield has not interference with the seal mating to the axle. It doesn't touch the seal. I'm thinking about replacing the air cans on each side. They look original also.
BTW all my brake shoes were replaced 2002. They have 110k miles on them. There was a lot of pad left on these I pulled off.
David
I had a tough time getting the shoes off. Took some hillbilly engineering to get the springs off.
If you look closely at the picture you can see the spring hook was in the hole in the brake lining along with the spring clip. Is it supposed to be that way. I couldn't release it until I got it onto the floor.
The second picture has the hook placed where I think it should land. Is this correct????
Let's talk about parts. I can read the part numbers on the bearings and seal.
one Bearing is Timken 3782 cone 3720
one bearing is Bower HM212049 cone HM212011
Seal assembly is CR 35066
The Bower number crosses over to Timken. There is a huge swing in pricing online for these. I read on truck forums of the difficulty in finding good American made bearings and seals and the rapid failure of Chinese knockoffs. How do I find the parts that are reliable? I only want to do this once
Check with Bearings Inc.
There should be heavy commercial truck parts stores where they'll have what you need. Also any city will have bearings stores. I find it easier to go to a store with my used parts in hand, where they can look them up, cross numbers, and order what they don't have for next day.
JC
Reliable, reputable analog, bricks and mortar store.
We do this to ourselves, buying online, unknown sources, and then lament the closing of another old school retail outlet.
If we don't buy the simple stuff from 'em, they won't be there when we need the complicated?
Support your neighbour, buy stuff from stores, help pay their wages, keep their kids in school, etc etc
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
FWIW you could also switch over to Scotseal Plus XL. Part #35058
Much easier to install (just make sure you coat the sealing surfaces - inner and outer - with gear oil prior to installation).
BTW, you are correct in assuming the heavy return spring does NOT go into the pin hole.
Several ways to reinstall. Some put the heavy return spring on both shoes and slide the assembly onto the spider with the return spring holding the two shoes together. Then install the anchor side (smaller) springs on last using a large flat screwdriver to slip the bottom hook into the lower anchor pin shoe hole.
You need bearing set 406 and set 413. As for the seal, depends on if there is a sleeve installed on the spindle where the seal lip rides. If there is no sleeve and the seal surface looks good, use seal number 370001A. It is a 2 piece seal assembly and works very well. The 2 halves of the seal rotate against each other eliminating wear on the seal lip of the spindle surface. If there is a sleeve installed on the seal lip surface of the spindle use seal #382-8036. It is a seal and sleeve set.
If replacing the bearing cups yourself without a hydraulic press, put them in the freezer overnight. Use a map torch to heat the cup surface of the hub, grab the cup from the freezer and it will almost drop right into place. I usually cut a slit through the old inner cup at a 45 degree angle and use it to install the new inner cup. (Remove the cup first. Cutting the old cup allows it to flex enough to be easily removed after using it to drive the new cup in)
Great ideas and instructions. I can probably get all this stuff at San Antonio Brake and Clutch.
There is no sleeve on my axle.
I called Luke today and they change out all their oil bath hubs with grease. Pack the bearings with grease and fill the hub about the same amount as the static level of oil and forget it. I guess pack the seal too since it spins with the hub. Looks like it will be a challenge to get much grease in the seal.
David
I've been preaching this for years. Not enough benefit for oiled bearings in our use. Oil soaked brakes is the result of a failed seal.
Quote from: thomasinnv on March 26, 2019, 03:19:39 PM
If replacing the bearing cups yourself without a hydraulic press, put them in the freezer overnight. Use a map torch to heat the cup surface of the hub, grab the cup from the freezer and it will almost drop right into place. I usually cut a slit through the old inner cup at a 45 degree angle and use it to install the new inner cup. (Remove the cup first. Cutting the old cup allows it to flex enough to be easily removed after using it to drive the new cup in)
Man, this was a fantastic help. You were right, it nearly fell to the bottom of the flange. Just a little tap and it was set. When the frost went away it was tight as a drum head.
I bought all my parts Friday and went to install the new shoes and they are too small around the radius, with the rollers not touching the S cams. The parts guy had my old shoes on the counter. How did he miss this? There were no readable numbers on the shoes. Does anyone know the shoe number for an Eagle model 10? The shoes were 5" wide. Frustrating since he has my core shoes. Back to San Antonio Monday to try to resolve this. Grrrr!!!
David
Quote from: David Anderson on March 26, 2019, 06:25:53 PM
Great ideas and instructions. I can probably get all this stuff at San Antonio Brake and Clutch.
There is no sleeve on my axle.
I called Luke today and they change out all their oil bath hubs with grease. Pack the bearings with grease and fill the hub about the same amount as the static level of oil and forget it. I guess pack the seal too since it spins with the hub. Looks like it will be a challenge to get much grease in the seal.
David
lol how many years have you owned that Houston Metro Eagle bus David in all the years you have a leak and going to change 1 side of the bogie to grease that going to be a odd set up.BTW those shoes are the the as the Mack R series front axle
If you use grease, you don't need or use the more expensive seal within a seal.
Quote from: luvrbus on March 30, 2019, 08:56:43 PM
lol how many years have you owned that Houston Metro Eagle bus David in all the years you have a leak and going to change 1 side of the bogie to grease that going to be a odd set up.BTW those shoes are the the as the Mack R series front axle
I'm changing both sides. Doing this has been much easier than I expected, but having the parts guy give me the wrong shoes is frustrating.
So if I tell the guy they are "Mack R series fronts" will he find the correct shoes?
David
You still have the front, lol doesn't sound like you breaking from OEM as much as you use your bus and I hope it doesn't come back and bite you
Quote from: luvrbus on March 31, 2019, 09:05:11 AM
You still have the front, lol doesn't sound like you breaking from OEM as much as you use your bus and I hope it doesn't come back and bite you
Not sure what you mean? You talking about changing oil to grease? Luke recommended it.
Quote from: David Anderson on March 31, 2019, 11:18:12 AM
Not sure what you mean? You talking about changing oil to grease? Luke recommended it.
Ok follow his recommendations but it makes no sense if the spindle is not worn and won't take a oil seal IMO.Only time I ever saw one leak is because of to much run out play because the bearing were wearing allowing to much runout (end play).The point I am making is your system ran for 102,000 miles and now you are going to system you need to remove the bogie wheels in 40 to 50,000 mile and do it again there was reason Eagle went to oil type in the 60's
I agree with you, but I'm amazed at how fast it let go when it let go. It showed no sign of oil on the hub cap or wheel front. It was all in the back on the brake shoes. If I hadn't crawled under the coach and looked around I wouldn't have seen it. I confess I did not check oil level often, but will from now on. Any sign of a fallen oil level requires a thorough investigation immediately.
In one way it is making me replace the brakes which doesn't really hurt that bad. It is going to run about $250 per wheel. Shoes, bearing sets, and seal.
Oil seals are great, but when they fail, they make a hell of a mess. Usually out on the road on a trip.
Quote from: chessie4905 on March 31, 2019, 01:49:13 PM
Oil seals are great, but when they fail, they make a hell of a mess. Usually out on the road on a trip.
Grease makes a mess when a bearing fails without warning and you usually have fire.no way would I change over but it is Davids dime and I have knew David for a long time and this kinda shocks me him changing.Stuffing a hub 1/2 full of grease on packed bearing did I read that right ?
I haven't decided yet. I have been searching the web for answers. Not too much out there about grease, but lots about oil. The plus side to oil is that when you have a failure it is easier to see and you still have bearings left. The down side is you ruin a set of shoes.
With grease you have no warning. After all the reading I've done I will probably stay with oil.
It has been over 100k miles, so I'm going to force myself to inspect all the wheels. It is the prudent thing to do. I want to finish the bogies first, then attack the others. Got to get the right shoes tomorrow by calling the counter guy that sold me the wrong ones.
David
Why are wheel seals being run to failure????
Grease or oil, a busnut needs to disassemble the wheel ends with an eye on the calendar, not just the low mileage we typically do.
We can argue how many months or years apart a busnut should tear down and inspect bearings and brakes, and put a fresh seal as good preventive maintenance, but we shouldn't need to argue that running until failure isn't a good strategy?
On your pre-trip, a knee on the ground and a flashlight to the opposite inner wheel for evidence of lube sling, same as the real bus and truck drivers?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: buswarrior on March 31, 2019, 06:33:04 PM
On your pre-trip, a knee on the ground and a flashlight to the opposite inner wheel for evidence of lube sling, same as the real bus and truck drivers?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Agree, it will be from now on. Much more diligence on my part in the future
My RTS runs grease front and rear. It's true that it is a maintenance item. I hadn't packed mine for 50,000-60,000 miles and one day I heard the FR wheel squeaking. Took the next exit and parked it, had my wife pick me up and came back with my service truck
Luckily I had caught it quick enough so there was no damage to the bearing. Just repacked it and towed my service truck home (50 miles).
Got the right shoes today. They didn't have them in stock so they rebuilt my old ones. Got both sides installed and ready for hub replacement tomorrow.
Here is part one of three videos on replacing wheel bearings and seals. Lots of help and info:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8-XL4E4m7o
TOM
Quote from: oldmansax on April 02, 2019, 05:19:07 AM
Here is part one of three videos on replacing wheel bearings and seals. Lots of help and info:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8-XL4E4m7o
TOM
Thanks Tom, that is one of several I watched. Very helpful. I'm sure glad people take time to record those things. It is so helpful.
The manufactures videos are a good resource some on Utube are for entertainment lol and not real good entertainment
If you are somewhat clueless and refer to U-tube for help, it is best to view several on same subject and weed out uncommon suggestions. There are many idiots posting flawed information.
Read chessie closely...
Idiots posting...
Moderated forums are the only place you have half a chance.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
People post on U-tube for the dollars manufactures post for the free advertisement dollars lol. I have this friend that generates 2 to 3000 bucks a month from U-tube and posts some really dumb things and people read it .One can find anything on the internet the good,bad and ugly
I have the whole procedure in my Eagle shop manual, but the videos I've seen illustrate much of the Eagle manual very closely. I've learned some cool tricks from some of the stuff I've watched. They are helpful. My reassembly specs are done from here. This should cover my work pretty well.
http://autoam.timken.com/techseries/trb_pages/TRB%20Adjustment%20RP-618.pdf
David
I agree with the posts about idiots on youtube. You have to weed those out. However, there are a lot of professionals that post there as well. The one I posted appears to be a Stemco rep teaching a class to Waste Management mechanics. Hopefully, Stemco knows something about replacing seals.......
;D ;D
TOM
Bendix has some good stuff on U-tube
got the bogies done. Set the slack adjusters according to the Eagle manual. I went back with oil. I figured since it lasted over 100k miles it's pretty good. I'm going to wait until the soreness subsides before I attack the front axles. :o
Thanks for all your help.
Took the bus out for a hard run of 30 miles and 70-75mph and checked axle hub temps when I returned home. 105 on the fronts and 125 on the bogies where I put the new bearings. Should I be concerned?
125 psi? That seems unusually high for bus drives unless yout've got a pallet of lead in the rear.
Quote from: windtrader on April 15, 2019, 05:57:46 PM
125 psi? That seems unusually high for bus drives unless yout've got a pallet of lead in the rear.
125 degrees.
Those are the hub temperatures at the bearings.
Quote from: David Anderson on March 31, 2019, 06:24:40 PM
I haven't decided yet. I have been searching the web for answers.
David
Why would you ? Rockwell and Spicer, etc. have about 150 years each in design....
PS. that pin that goes thru the brake web, the one the spring hooks to, you knock it out with a punch, and you replace it.
Re: hub temps
Continue to monitor closely.
What weights do they both carry on that bus?
Shoot the drums also, through the hand holds, record and compare.
Snug bearing or dragging shoe are your potentials, but no where big enough temp to do more than continue to watch.
If it stays there, no worries says I.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Ok, so I changed this in April 2019 and noticed some oil leakage on street side bogie. I thought I sealed the oil reservoir hub securely. I wonder what I did wrong.
Looks to be a lock washer seepage ,trust the gasket never use RTV silicone on those,check the vent hole in the cap to0
Quote from: luvrbus on August 08, 2020, 02:29:35 PM
Looks to be a lock washer seepage ,trust the gasket never use RTV silicone on those,check the vent hole in the cap to0
It made it 8000 miles. Maybe I could put some goo around the washers and seal it up
Quote from: David Anderson on August 09, 2020, 09:36:14 AM
It made it 8000 miles. Maybe I could put some goo around the washers and seal it up
those are OEM caps from Eagle they leak over time because the fill cap is so large too,I changed my fill caps about every 3 to 5 years to stop the seepage till I changed over to the newer Stemco cast aluminum housing and the small fill plug.if you can rotate the plug easy then you need new plugs